Not here, no, our forum is very polite. But check #nonlock or #warstan on tumblr....

Quickly catching up ...

The sex aspect:
It keeps coming up because it's the only difference between us .  I think their relationship is more than a friendship, that they love each other, etc. etc. - how is that different from the Johnlock view?  It's not that I think people who see Johnlock ONLY see sexual attraction and nothing else, but that I think they see sexual attraction AS WELL AS  all the stuff that I see.  At least, I can't think of a single other aspect that distinguishes the two broad views.

The tarmac scene:
It IS a lead in to a joke, but there is a huge amount of feeling there as well.  How about something as simple as "I love you"?  It has only been said in a more oblique way, never directly.   Of course, it could be something less simple - something to do with John always sticking by Sherlock even when the world's against him, having faith in him despite the evidence (and I like that in HLV Martin seemed to easily believe Sherlock over Mary, despite Sherlock's repeated and known deception, despite the two year separation, etc - even going back to the first case, when John believed Sherlock despite Sally, despite Mycroft).  Of the things Sherlock hasn't said directly to John, I think that's a big one (even if it might be difficult to put in words!).  

The thread:
I thought the suggestion of a thread was just a question of balance - there's the "guide", which seems to have become more of a Johnlock support/appreciation thread, there's this thread, which is for the debate and both "sides" are represented, but there isn't a thread for John and Sherlock's relationship if it's not Johnlock.  I honestly don't know if there would be a lot to discuss ... maybe just things like the above?

SusiGo wrote:

I think there is one decisive difference in our views - we think and expect that Sherlock and John should spend their life together which IMO would exclude the possibility other partners. The "more than friendship" - sexual or not sexual - relationship IMO does not leave room for a wife or girlfriend (or boyfriend).
 

That's exactly how I feel too. To me, their relationship should an exclusive one, with no other dates or wifes or such. If they spend it being chaste or if they spend it shagging their brains out is not relevant.

(Though personally, I think there is nothing wrong with elaborated snogging. )

But the trouble is that the writers have chosen to add in a wife and girlfriends (even though it wasn't necessary, I don't think - it's canon, but it doesn't need to be an aspect of canon that was used).  I'd have been happy not to have that, BUT I think that Sherlock and John seem to manage to continue their relationship despite that. 

If you do see them as not sexually attracted to each other, and just not sexually active with anybody, then I think we're not too far off - I don't actually want to see Sherlock "dating" during the show - I love to think of him repressing his desires rather than acting on them.  I could seriously see Sherlock and John living together as friends indefinitely. 

But I think the usual Johnlock view does include sexual attraction between them.
 

They want to make it difficult, that's the reason why. "Errements et tourments".

SusiGo wrote:

I disagree. The end of TSoT and the whole of HLV show that they are not able to continue their relationship as before. We have dedicated whole threads to the fact that there are profound changes (and not for the better), symbolised e.g. by the disappearance and re-appearance of John's chair. And I think the end of HLV shows us a Sherlock and John in a deep crisis.
But I regard their relationship as a love story and plotwise we have lots and lots of examples in literature and film where the partners have to overcome obstacles. It is the oldest story in the word - boy meets boy, boy loses boy, boy gets boy. 

Living together as friends? Not a bad idea. But there is the fact that John is sexually active. So how should he cope? One-night stands? Girls on the side? Not really. I think the creators might be courageous enough and do something really new. We had a female Watson, we had both of them as mice, so why not go all the way and depict Sherlock and John as being in love and having sex?
 

That's what I mean - I was responding to the posts above.  If you say that they can't have wives and girlfriends - well, it has already happened.   It didn't mean the end of their relationship in the books, and it won't in the TV series.  (In fact, I think that in some ways, they grow closer in S3). 

And I was answering Schmeizi's comment about seeing them in a non-sexual relationship.  I do think it's possible.  (Although, I agree, more likely that John would continue to date if not in a sexual relationship.  And also, I think, possible that Sherlock might change his views on sex later in life and become less repressed). 

Why not go all the way?  Honestly - I think they haven't set it up very well to do that.    They could have them seeing the light in S4 and finding out they're sexually attracted - and when that happened, if they wanted to, they would go for it, I think.  But what I'd hate to see, is backtracking and saying that they fancied each other all along but were too scared/polite to do anything about it.    It would change the characters. 

Last edited by Liberty (December 12, 2014 8:41 pm)

But people on both "sides" see it as romantic, so it's not a difference.  I do think the only real difference is sexual attraction.   I'm still thinking about the example Schmeizi gave, but if they didn't desire each other, I'd say it was non-Johnlock (another word to put in my list of not-very-liked words, next to "bromance").   If they did desire each other, but didn't act on it, it would be Johnlock, I think.  But I don't suppose there's a standard definition of Johnlock and maybe some people see a romantic friendship as coming under that banner?

I think it would be after a major heartbreak.  Losing the love of his life.

I agree with all of the above, Zatoichi.   Yes, there are people who put work or hobbies first, and somebody might be happy with that setup.  (In ACD Watson's wife/wives don't really play a part).  And I agree about sex drive changing.   In fact, I like the suggestion (the commentary on the Janine hospital scene) that Sherlock might allow himself a flaw in his instrument once he'd retired. But some people do live their lives without a lot of sex, despite it being such a strong drive.  I can see them together in old age, with or without lovers or spouses.

I don't think I'd like a situation where Sherlock falls for John, but keeps it quiet and John continues to see women.  I do wonder if that is hinted at in the stories - I know a lot of people see them as secretly being lovers in the original stories, but I can also see it as an unrequited attraction on Holmes' part, that Watson doesn't even know about.  So I don't think it would be straying from canon to do that.  But I don't think it would work so well in modern times, and I also don't really want to see them in that situation. 

I think TV Sherlock has definitely chosen celibacy (which Holmes in the books does too - but if he was gay, he might have been slightly influenced by more homophobic times - it's not as if he'd have had the option of open love and marriage).  But I think that (as in the books), he does sometimes realise what he might be missing.   There's a feeling at the end of TSOT that he recognises he's not part of that world  - that he's chosen not to be and has lost something. 

Last edited by Liberty (December 13, 2014 9:25 am)

Yes, that might also be another difference. As a Johnlocker, I don't see that John will go to other women for a romantic relationship. All he needs in a relationship will be with Sherlock.