Ah yes, discussion. Well, I totally agree with you. And I think I've said it before, emotions aren't always easy to read, but if you need Mofftiss to explain the emotions we're supposed to see to you... well, doesn't convince me.

I definitely want that for Christmas. Text:  "I am John 'I don't understand' Watson".

SolarSystem wrote:

Ah yes, discussion. Well, I totally agree with you. And I think I've said it before, emotions aren't always easy to read, but if you need Mofftiss to explain the emotions we're supposed to see to you... well, doesn't convince me.

I don't think it's needed (I never did see jealousy, even though I DO believe that jealousy can happen in "platonic" friendships too.  In fact, I see it in the Sholto scene).    So it's not an explanation, so much as reassurance?  And also, it's a lot clearer than trying to interpret emotions, as you say (and I agree!).  

But I think some of those tumblr posts do lead people off the mark.   I was reading the comments on the transcript I linked to, and I think we're all looking for clues that are often not intended.   For instance, I had such faith that the surgery story would be explained - of COURSE it would, because there was no need to make Sherlock's heart stop other than to show Mary meant to kill him.   Now, hearing the commentary, I'm starting to accept that I might be wrong - that they maybe did it for the drama, rather than the plot.  I watch Doctor Who as well (where Moffat is the showrunner and writes some episodes) and it feels as if his episodes are driven by drama and "sentiment" sometimes - NOT that that's a bad thing, but I think that the emotional impact sometimes over-rules the tightness of the plotting and thread-tying, perhaps?   And also that it's not unusual for him to leave things unexplained and ambiguous.  In this case, they've just taken away the ambiguity and been straight about what that aspect of the scene means., and in the end, it turns out to be something quite straightforward and expected.  (Of course John would want Sherlock to be happy!). 

Edit: I just thought of another example - I'd thought a lot about the odd scenes with John in the surgery in TEH, and why they had made it come across as a unreal, dream-like in a way, because they had shown John doing things a GP wouldn't do (and Mary doing things a nurse wouldn't do, etc.).   Anyway, in the commentary, Stevens mentions something like "I found out afterwards that doctors don't do that any more".  That was it - there was no deep meaning.   They just hadn't done their research! 
 

Last edited by Liberty (November 8, 2014 11:58 am)

Well, there are so many moments of jealousy between those two, too many for me to ignore:

- Sherlock gatecrashing John's date in TBB after equating John going out with a women to going out with himself
- Sherlock's behaviour towards Jeanette in ASiB
- Sherlock's reaction to Sholto
- John's repeated reactions to Irene
- John's reaction to Janine

Of course any of these moments may be explained in a different way but it is the sheer number that makes me think twice. 

I see what you mean, mrshouse. This is the first time that many what we are meant to see and feel (if we believe the creators) does not go together with what many actually see and feel. 

@bb, Johns answer to Irenes question if he was jealous was not " no" but " maybe", just a reminder.,.
And what do you mean by Sherlock -John-Mary?

besleybean wrote:

But Sherlock isn't gatecrashing the date...,he's on a case. (you said John, but I think you meant Sherlock so I changed it - hope you don't mind!)
I see no jealousy with Jeanette, I see indifference.
Sherlock is definitely jealous of Sholto being a rival best friend.
John denied being jealous of Irene and I believe him.
I see no jealousy with Janine.

That's more or less how I see it.  I think the Sholto scene is really clear.  If there had been a commentary there saying "Sherlock is thrilled that John's getting to meet up with his old friend!  We ditched the first cut because he looked jealous", then honestly, I'd have just the same sort of reaction as people have here to the Janine commentary - incredulousness!   I think they are good scenes to compare, in fact. 

Sherlock doesn't seem to bother about John's girlfriends beyond how much they get in the way of him and John (and they don't.  Even Mary tends to facilitate the relationship between John and Sherlock rather than get in the way). 

I think you could say there's some jealousy with Irene (although I don't think it's sexual jealousy of the type that's being talked about) - John initially seems a bit put out that Irene is clearly attracted to Sherlock rather than him, and then later about playing gooseberry while Irene and Sherlock form a mutual admiration society. 

Of course he does not love Mary like he loves John. Even if we suppose a completely "platonic" love for John (the term itself is debatable, just as an aside) - Mary made John deeply unhappy, nearly killed his best friend, lied to him from the beginning, did not apologise even once, does never say she loves him, goes against his "strong moral principle" (remember ASiP?)  - do I really have to go on? 
Could we please for once look at what we see and hear and not what someone has said who is in an ongoing show based on cliffhangers and suspense?

mrshouse wrote:

@Liberty, I think Sherlock always felt a bit annoyed by Johns girlfriends. Otherwise there was no need to include scenes like the Christmas scene with the IMO very deliberate confusion and mean listing up of the girls. And as for Mary bot being an obstacle, imo that keeps changing during the season as whole. One might consider her being supportive in the beginning, true. But that change a bit, and in HLV I don't see any support from her whatsoever, culminating in the feeling of being lost and very much apart from each other on the tarmac.

Yes, I think she deliberately facilitates it at the beginning, partly because she wants to get close to Sherlock (whether that's for a good reason or a bad reason!), and I think because she sees it makes John happy.   But even when she shoots Sherlock, it kind of brings them together rather than pushing them apart.  John believes Sherlock over Mary. 

So Sherlock never really experiences the women in John's life being rivals.  I think he might be a bit annoyed in the sense of  - why would you want to do that, when you could be doing something much more exciting with me?

The Christmas scene is really interesting, because something changes about Sherlock at that point.  I think the way he talks to Jeanette shows that he's rather indifferent to the girlfriends.   He's just as rude to Molly whom he has no reason to have il-lfeeling towards.  He just doesn't think, doesn't care, likes to show off, until he realises his mistake and then he's genuinely apologetic. 

SusiGo wrote:

Could we please for once look at what we see and hear and not what someone has said who is in an ongoing show based on cliffhangers and suspense?

I´m more than 99% certain that the commentary is not just fake and trolling to protect the suspense and increase the surprise in S4. But of course everyone is free to hold on to their hopes..

As for Jeanette - Sherlock never saves information he considers unimportant in his mindpalace.. see Greg or the Solar System..

Last edited by Zatoichi (November 8, 2014 6:19 pm)