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    November 4, 2014 9:35 pm  #2421

    SusiGo
    The game is never over (moderator)

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    Registered: June 5, 2012
    Posts: 22,965

    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Well said, Solar. And we might draw parallels with a scene in ASIB but I think it is too late in the evening for me. 

    ------------------------------
    "To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

    "It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

    “Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



     
     

    November 4, 2014 9:37 pm  #2422

    besleybean
    Threatened Knighthood

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    Registered: October 4, 2012
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    @ nakahara Nobody is denying that.
    But that is a completely different thing from what the artists say they intended.

    Last edited by besleybean (November 4, 2014 9:37 pm)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
     

    November 4, 2014 9:42 pm  #2423

    nakahara
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    besleybean wrote:

    @ nakahara Nobody is denying that.
    But that is a completely different thing from what the artists say they intended.

    (Shrugs shoulders)
    And this artist maybe intended this song as happy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lES85-yYdAc

    I still hear bittersweet melancholy....
     

    -----------------------------------

    I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

     

    November 4, 2014 9:43 pm  #2424

    SusiGo
    The game is never over (moderator)

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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Art is never only what the artists intended. The moment your present your work - music, painting, literature, film - to the public it does not belong only to you any longer and is free to be analysed and felt and commented upon by others. And others bring their own perceptions, idea, preference into it and create something new. 

    ------------------------------
    "To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

    "It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

    “Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



     
     

    November 4, 2014 9:43 pm  #2425

    besleybean
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    The artist is free in their intent and you are free to perceive how you choose.
    @ Susi: if somwthing new is created it is just that...it is not the same as the original work and should not be confused with it.

    Last edited by besleybean (November 4, 2014 9:45 pm)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
     

    November 4, 2014 9:52 pm  #2426

    nakahara
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Art that does not communicate with its audience by giving them new ideas and that does not move their hearts with new feelings is not art, it´s a kitsch.

    -----------------------------------

    I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

     

    November 4, 2014 9:52 pm  #2427

    SolarSystem
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Who is confusing something new with an original work here, besleybean?
     

    Last edited by SolarSystem (November 4, 2014 9:53 pm)

    ___________________________________________________
    "Am I the current King of England?

    "I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
    "We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"
     
     

    November 4, 2014 9:56 pm  #2428

    besleybean
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    Registered: October 4, 2012
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    I'm not saying anybody was,

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
     

    November 4, 2014 9:57 pm  #2429

    Liberty
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Yes, of course you see what you see, of course you create something out of it (which might be different for everybody) and of course you are entitled to.  It's just interesting to occasionally get the makers' view on what they wanted us to see, and/or how they see it themselves.   I think it's lovely that we don't have to see John as jealous, angry and negative ... we've been told that Mark and Steven see him as genuinely caring about Sherlock's happiness at that point (which to me, seems a more natural reaction for him to have to somebody he loves and cares about).    It's possible to have that warm view of Sherlock and John's relationship (regardless of Johnlock, I think - John could still be attracted to Sherlock, but be pleased that he's happy). 

    John finds out soon enough that Sherlock was deceiving Janine.  But it's nice that there's that moment of being happy for him. 

    Last edited by Liberty (November 4, 2014 10:02 pm)

     

    November 4, 2014 10:00 pm  #2430

    nakahara
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Of course, there is nothing wrong with that. 

    -----------------------------------

    I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

     

    November 4, 2014 10:15 pm  #2431

    SolarSystem
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Liberty wrote:

    John finds out soon enough that Sherlock was deceiving Janine.  But it's nice that there's that moment of being happy for him. 

    And that's a good example for what Susi was talking about in terms of perception, ideas and preference that people bring into a work of art. Your idea is that it's nice to see John being happy for Sherlock and you prefer this over John being jealous. So hearing Mofftiss talk about this in the commentary makes it easy for you to actually see this in the episode. And there's nothing wrong with it. But it still has to do with what you prefer to spot in that scene in contrast to what you don't really want the scene to be about.

     

    Last edited by SolarSystem (November 4, 2014 10:15 pm)

    ___________________________________________________
    "Am I the current King of England?

    "I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
    "We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"
     
     

    November 4, 2014 10:42 pm  #2432

    Liberty
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Of course, I prefer it .  It shows John in a better light, and shows their relationship in a better light.  I actually mentioned something about our preconceptions and how they influence our viewing a while back, and I agree, it makes it easier for me to take on board what Moftiss say than it might be for somebody who prefers to see John as jealous.
     

    Last edited by Liberty (November 4, 2014 10:45 pm)

     

    November 5, 2014 8:40 am  #2433

    mrshouse
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    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    I just leave those faces played by the brilliant Martin Freeman here. There is nothing to add IMHO:

    a genuine smile:



    another one:



    and a not so genuine one, thank you, Martin, love your smiles, always:


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[/img]

    Last edited by mrshouse (November 5, 2014 10:41 pm)

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


    "If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
    "Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
    "This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

     

    November 5, 2014 8:42 am  #2434

    SusiGo
    The game is never over (moderator)

    Offline

    From: Germany
    Registered: June 5, 2012
    Posts: 22,965

    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Thank you, mrshouse. This is what I love about the show - sometimes you just have to look at what the actors are going and do not need any additional explanations. 

    ------------------------------
    "To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

    "It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

    “Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



     
     

    November 5, 2014 8:44 am  #2435

    mrshouse
    Stayin' Alive

    Offline

    Registered: January 16, 2014
    Posts: 3,802

    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Gah, the post is awfully edited, I'm truly sorry, it doesn't work the way I want...

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


    "If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
    "Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
    "This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

     

    November 5, 2014 8:45 am  #2436

    SusiGo
    The game is never over (moderator)

    Offline

    From: Germany
    Registered: June 5, 2012
    Posts: 22,965

    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Well, the important things are there. 

    ------------------------------
    "To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

    "It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

    “Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



     
     

    November 5, 2014 8:50 am  #2437

    nakahara
    Threatened Knighthood

    Offline

    Registered: February 22, 2014
    Posts: 11,979

    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Very good observation, mrshouse, that last John´s facial expression looks more like a spasm than a genuine smile.

    -----------------------------------

    I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

     

    November 5, 2014 9:01 am  #2438

    mrshouse
    Stayin' Alive

    Offline

    Registered: January 16, 2014
    Posts: 3,802

    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    And another not so happy for my best friend face, embraced by Sherlocks hands holding the engagement ring in the box, I ask you!

     

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


    "If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
    "Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
    "This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

     

    November 5, 2014 9:14 am  #2439

    mrshouse
    Stayin' Alive

    Offline

    Registered: January 16, 2014
    Posts: 3,802

    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Sorry, can't stop myself. This is John's body language when Janine leaves. Very happy, indeed:

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


    "If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
    "Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
    "This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

     

    November 5, 2014 9:21 am  #2440

    SusiGo
    The game is never over (moderator)

    Offline

    From: Germany
    Registered: June 5, 2012
    Posts: 22,965

    Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

    Well observed, mrshouse. 

    ------------------------------
    "To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

    "It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

    “Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



     
     

     

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