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September 15, 2012 11:07 am  #161


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

To be honest to me it just doesn't seem important. Rather like Sherlock might well think...it is a distraction. Where is its relevance?

Last edited by Davina (September 15, 2012 11:07 am)


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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September 15, 2012 11:12 am  #162


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

There are plenty of people who grow up not interested in sex, more interested in academic study and their own imagination, or not socially confident enough to flirt or even get into a situation like that. Sherlock is all of those traits and more. I know that most people of his age have lost their virginity, but I am in my mid 20s and actually know quite a few people who are still virgins, I even know a guy in his 60s who has never had sex and never wanted to!

And why would Sherlock care? I mean really? It's just like the solar system - not important! And far too much of a distraction from his work and study. Even at Uni whilst everyone would be going out partying etc, he would be sat in his room stooped over his microscope and writing his dissertations. He doesn't socialise, he hates parties, he has no friends, how do you suppose he would even meet people to get into those situations?

And what would his motivation be? He believes that love is a dangerous disadvantage, that sentiment is pretty stupid etc, and as an intelligent man he would know that sex often leads to development of feelings and emotions, something he would want to avoid. He would just view the whole thing as a pointless waste of his precious time and energy.

Yup. That's all a possibility, just like the scenario I outlined. Neither of our ideas has any more merit than the other, IMO. Unless and until they have him open his mouth and explain himself in actual dialogue, it will all be speculation on our parts, no matter our ideas about this.

 

September 15, 2012 11:19 am  #163


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Mattlocked wrote:

okay... so why does a part of the fandom "has jumped to the" johnlock-thing then?
I never heard anything like that out of John's or Sherlock's mouth.     I agree with boss, to me Sherlock just seems "not interested". So to me he's more likely a virgin than experienced. But of course so far you never know. 

He's interested in John. No idea if his male bits sit up and take notice about John, but his mind does. Absolutely. Anyone who can't see that just isn't looking. And that's true for original canon as well as this BBC canon. John cannot seem to stop saying, "I'm not his date!" and "We're not together!" and "I'm not gay!" to anyone who will listen. But Sherlock just sits and looks like the Cheshire cat, except without the grin, whenever people start the comments.

The writers, of course, are playing fast and loose with us on all of this-- tantalizing us, as if with a feathered plaything, as though we fans were kittens who needed a play outlet. Gay? Straight? Bi? Virgin? Experienced as hell but now celibate by choice? You choose.  Here, kitty, kitty....come play with the nice feather.....

 

September 15, 2012 11:58 am  #164


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

I think the argument falls apart when you dismiss the canon on the one hand and then use it for back up on the other.

And the last few posts echo what I always say, its not an issue either to the character or the stories.
It's being put out there simply because the creators know that in this day & age sex sells to a certain part of the fandom.


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Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

September 15, 2012 12:15 pm  #165


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

kazza474 wrote:

I think the argument falls apart when you dismiss the canon on the one hand and then use it for back up on the other. And the last few posts echo what I always say, its not an issue either to the character or the stories. It's being put out there simply because the creators know that in this day & age sex sells to a certain part of the fandom.

I am not dismissing canon, not this time. My understanding is that the original S/J had a deep friendship and working relationship akin to the one in the current canon. Love comes in all forms, with and without physical expression.

Yes, sex sells today, and I suspect it did in ACD's day as well, even though those 19th century folks didn't have the video imaging that we do. This is what I was saying about the writers treating us like kittens in desperate need of a plaything; they're holding out these teasing snippets, like Mycroft's comment in Buckingham Palace, about how could Sherlock know anything about sex (sorry, I'm paraphrasing), in order to keep us talking, speculating, wondering, interested. IMO it also makes Sherlock more engaging as a character, and less one-dimensional-- if he were always grim, insulting, and all business, he would hardly be a sympathetic character to modern watchers. And after all, ACD's original Sherlock was hardly only grim, insulting and all business either.

 

September 15, 2012 12:29 pm  #166


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

That is my point; you will only dismiss the canon when its suits your agenda. In this case you have decided it is useful to quote it as a source.
That's an insult to the canon in my eyes; it's not a prop you can use & abuse at will. Doing so makes for a very flimsy case indeed.

You interpret the sex issue as something they are dangling at us all? As if it is a drawcard for fans?  Hardly , when many fans have an interest in this show for more canonical reasons. Sex never was and never will be a topic for many fans, regardless of what you personally believe.

Holmes was at times a very grim, insulting man & very business like I can assure you.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

September 15, 2012 12:50 pm  #167


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

kazza474 wrote:

That is my point; you will only dismiss the canon when its suits your agenda. In this case you have decided it is useful to quote it as a source.
That's an insult to the canon in my eyes; it's not a prop you can use & abuse at will. Doing so makes for a very flimsy case indeed.

You interpret the sex issue as something they are dangling at us all? As if it is a drawcard for fans?  Hardly , when many fans have an interest in this show for more canonical reasons. Sex never was and never will be a topic for many fans, regardless of what you personally believe.

Holmes was at times a very grim, insulting man & very business like I can assure you.

I bow to your superior wisdom about my (of course flawed) opinions, my propensity to "use and abuse" (???) canon, your dismissive, righteous attitude about anyone who might be interested in Sherlock the man, not just Sherlock the detective genius. It must be really really nice to have it all figured out. Maybe I can be you when I grow up.

 

September 15, 2012 1:00 pm  #168


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

I was addressing your ideas, not you personally. Please accord me with the same courtesies.
It is your choice to decide I have a 'superior wisdom' however my 'wisdom' was not an issue here.
"Attitude" is in the eye of the beholder.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

September 15, 2012 2:37 pm  #169


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

ancientsgate wrote:

....
He's interested in John. No idea if his male bits sit up and take notice about John, but his mind does. Absolutely. Anyone who can't see that just isn't looking. And that's true for original canon as well as this BBC canon. John cannot seem to stop saying, "I'm not his date!" and "We're not together!" and "I'm not gay!" to anyone who will listen. But Sherlock just sits and looks like the Cheshire cat, except without the grin, whenever people start the comments.

....

John only dissents when somebody is mentioning the idea that they may be gay.
And Sherlock doesn't say anything because he doesn't care. That's what I think.
But I will take a closer look at those scenes, maybe I can read something in Sherlock's eyes what I've missed so far. (OMG, watching it all over again... And then Parade's End and all the other movies. I really hope Moftiss will take their time until Sherlock 3 will be on air... LOL)


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September 15, 2012 3:16 pm  #170


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Hey everyone - in my line of work "tone of email" is a constant problem to watch out for.  Conversing in email leads to misunderstandings since people can't see facial expressions, body language, and whether or not there is lightness in the speaking voice. This can lead to ugly email wars. Not good.

Not naming any names here, and I realize communication skills vary, but if Forum members often seem to get pissed off at your comments, or seem to think you are being a 'big mouth', or always misinterpret things you are, in all honesty trying to say, maybe it's time to examine why that's happening. Just saying....

This is a forum where I hope all can feel welcome and 'safe' to express their thoughts and opinions about all things "Sherlock".  That was my impression when I joined.  Healthy debate is always a good thing, but when things become heated and vindictive it's no longer fun.  There are canon threads and sex threads and everything else in between threads here - plenty of room for any and all, IMO. Sarcasm and "smart ass" remarks should have no place here. Nor should "My opinion is bigger/better/stronger/more righteous than your opinion". There comes a time when all parties have to say, "Okay we now agree to disagree" and let it go.  Maybe that time has come on this thread?

BBC Sherlock is as pure an entertainment vehicle as the ACD stories where their day. ACD knew his 19th century audience as well as the Moftiss know their 21st century one. The characters are larger than life and live larger than life. If the BBC characters and the situations they find themselves in have changed slightly to bring them into line with modern day issues and societal mores then I find that pure creative genius. As I said in my very first post here, they had me at "The game, Mrs. Hudson, is on!"  From that point, I was willing to go wherever they wanted to take me with this Sherlock - anywhere, anytime. If they give me enough rope to hang my own impressions and interpretations on, even better.  If I want to see sexual innuendo where no else does, fine. Let me express it out loud here and let others agree or respectfully disagree with me if they wish. Those that agree can come along with me and those that don't can go their own way. In the end, I will respectfully leave you to your little garden of BBC Sherlock delights as long as you leave me to mine without rancor.


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And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

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September 15, 2012 3:28 pm  #171


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Well said, KP. The fact that we usually can discuss everything in a sometimes passionate but relaxed and friendly way is what attracts me to this forum. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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September 15, 2012 4:19 pm  #172


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Back to the question as it were and with reference to the scene in The Palace which various posts have alluded to. The only episode where sex per se is mentioned with regard to Sherlock is in A Scandal in Belgravia and that is because sex is intrinsic to that particular storyline. The running gag about there being a gay relationship between John and Sherlock is just that, a running gag, especially as John is trying to be such a ladies' man. Mycroft and Sherlock engage in slightly embarrassing sibling banter all the time, being in the palace makes no difference; they like scoring points off one another (autocorrect had that as scoring pints off one another which I think is perhaps a more productive activity).

Just one other small point: the 'w......r' word (used to describe Mycroft in an earlier post) is actually a strongly rude word here in the UK so maybe better to avoid it and choose one of the options from the series that might be applied e.g. 'annoying dick' or 'tit' to quote John.

A couple of other points to consider are : the legal age of consent (in the UK it is 16) and the age of some of the younger members of the forum and frame our posts with due consideration to both these aspects.

I know people have different interpretations of the possible relationship between John and Sherlock but perhaps these arguments are becoming circular and not very productive and that is why people are becoming less tolerant and more frustrated with each other.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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September 15, 2012 4:37 pm  #173


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Yes Davina, several things just keep getting repeated here, obviously a circle thing happening.
Please let's get back on track & leave other comments to another place. Although I will say KP that is the thinnest veil I have ever seen.
I understand your feelings toward me, they have been spelt out quite clearly, let's move along now shall we?

Last edited by kazza474 (September 15, 2012 4:44 pm)


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

September 15, 2012 6:19 pm  #174


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Thanks KP. Well said, and diplomatically, IMO.  We're off topic of course.

Not sure why this is a heated thread. I think the idea of Johnlock is kind of beside the point here-- not sure who brought that into the discussion today (was it me? lololol.... could be!) but the topic is whether or not Sherlock has ever had a GF. Thinking about it, that actually is a ways away from "is he a virgin?", which has come up plenty on this thread.

Did Sherlock ever have a GF in original canon? If he never did, the idea of this thread must be disturbing to the purists here??

My apologies to the forum for using the w****r word earlier. I saw it had been changed to "silly boy"-- IMO it would have been better if the mods had just deleted the word, rather than imply I would say silly boy--  ???? Mycroft is a lot of things, but not a silly boy, at least IMO.  Anyway, I went back in and eliminated the W word myself. I should have known better than use a Brit word that I am unfamiliar with.

 

September 15, 2012 6:29 pm  #175


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

As far as I know he's never been associated with any woman apart from Irene Adler and in SCAN it is expressly mentioned that he does not feel anything like love for her. I don't want to repeat things that have been said so often but we live in the 21st century, the Sherlock series is a modern interpretation (as are the Guy Ritchie films in which the gay element is much more obvious) and the canon Holmes is in many ways different from BBC's Sherlock (e.g. Asperger's, sociopathic traits, his rudeness to mention only a few).
I'm very happy to have a forum in which all ideas can be discussed openly and I'm looking forward each day to switching on my computer. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 15, 2012 6:33 pm  #176


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

At least no-one will be inadvertently dropping the w.....r word into conversation when/if they visit the UK. Could be dangerous...not to say embarrasing. Mind you, there are occasions when the use is perfectly legitimate! Lol.



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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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September 15, 2012 10:56 pm  #177


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Look, everyone has their pont of view, it's been great read them all, but it's my turn now.
*So sorry about typos*
First, nobody has to tell the truth, nothing is explicit in the canon, so all the adaptations are also a point of view.
Snd, Sherlock has fellings (human being) and he knows it, which doesn't mean he understands it. Simply because he prefers not to care about them, and he's learned how to control them.
I don't think he has ever had a girl/boy and I think he's virgin (during the canon), because the process of "not letting the feelings interfer the mind" was long and probably comes to his childhood. And he understands the *chemistry* of love, so he doesn't need to experiment it.
His pleasure has always been the cience of deduction, observe and study, biologically speaking, are a pleasure to him (see how much he gets excited* during a case), not putting his hand in his pants.
Considering that all,
what would be the closest of "love" for Sherlock Holmes? Admire.
who would be able to conquer his love? Someone who could surprise him.
Irene Adler is an example, and I think he's "loved" her this way (the canon is too subtle, but he keeps a photo and that's suggestive, cause he could perfectly remember the case without it).
"If I ever marry, Watson, I hope to be able to inspire such feelings that my wife does not allow herself to get carried away meekly by a housekeeper when my corpse lying a few meters away." That's The Valley of Fear, showing he does not disregard a relationship someday.
P.S.: I'm not a Johnlock shipper, but I enjoy noticing their suggestive moments, it's fun to me. But I think SH sees John as someone who exalts his skills, reconizes his job, and John sees SH as adventure. Exactly what they were needing at the beggining.


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“The scar had not pained Harry for nineteen years. All was well.” HP and the Deathly Hallows

"Why's it always the hat photograph?"The Reichenbach Fall
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September 24, 2012 12:10 am  #178


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

KeepersPrice wrote:

Smoggy_London_Air wrote:

I believe Sherlock's relationship with Irene is purely intellectual. If he is attracted to her, he's attracted to her mind, not what's in her pants. To him, it wouldn't matter if Irene was a sexless brain in a box, if she offered a challenge, he's game. Perhaps intellsexual?

Ah ha!  I just learned a new word today that may be just what you're trying to describe here.  'Sapiosexual' = one who finds intelligence the most sexually attractive feature.  You were close Smoggy! 

New word of the day.


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Potential flatmates should know the worst about each other.

It's a three patch problem.

I didn't know; I saw.
 

September 25, 2012 2:45 am  #179


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

I don't think he's secretly Don Juan, but in his efforts to expand his 'reference system', he must have had some experience somewhere before, then decided women were too much trouble and interfered with his work.

Despite his looks, I'm guessing again his intelligence level alienated him from females. Think about it, the one time Sherlock doesn't form a precise English sentence is following Irene's admiring quip "Brainy is the new sexy." (Actually, I think his reply was something along "Gahblooey-) ;)

It's obvious from his feelings for Irene that more than beauty even, her wit (and she was one sharp cookie) was what set the 'kindred soul' bells off. At the very end of SIB, Sherlock leans in VERY close to Irene and takes her hand again as he tells her about taking her pulse. For a moment, her proximity and perhaps her perfume, make him take a pause and steady himself (hot-sorry! it was as erotic as that moment in Scorcese's Age of Innocence when Archer kissed the inside of Ellen's wrist in the carriage). The look on Mycroft's face observing this is priceless as in "oh mi god--i had no idea".
ps. i also just realized they were standing in front of a table.

Last edited by MaggieM (October 27, 2012 7:45 am)

 

October 5, 2012 5:56 pm  #180


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

I confess from the outset that I'm pretty much of the asexual Sherlock category.
This of course doesn't necessarily mean he is a virgin, but I personally think he is.
This could put me out of kilter with Benedict and Steven, but I don't agree with them on everything.
I am willing to accept he may have dabbled/experimented.
But I don't see why he should have HAD to.
His responses to Irene  seem to imply he is a virgin .Mycroft thinks he is and I think he would know.
I do wonder if sometimes people confuse celibacy/asexuality...
Anyhow.  I don't think Sherlock would have dated in the usual sense.
I do think he was attracted to Irene, but not sure if it was sexual or not.


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