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July 31, 2012 4:08 pm  #101


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

The Doctor wrote:

"John is a bit like the brother Sherlock doesn't have. "

I always wondered if Gattis and Moffat will one day explain the deviation from the canon. In the original, Sherlock and Mycroft have a great brotherly relationship, but in the show it is transferred to John instead. I wonder why? In the book the three of them went along just fine.
Then again, might have 'just' been an attempt to create more tension -it's what makes for riveting television!

And yes, I realise they have 20+ years left to end up where the canon starts ;)

Yes, maybe they're working up to it. Because this show is a prequel, maybe they decided to make the brothers contentious at first but gradually (or maybe suddenly, who knows?) they'll have a change of heard and get "brotherly".

To me, they're pretty brotherly even now. Except for the thing Mycroft did, telling Moriarty all about Sherlock in exchange for some criminal information, Mycroft has actually been looking out for his brother, in his own peculiar way.

Maybe Gattiss didn't want more screen time than he already has. Plus, as you said, the tension is very interesting, so there is that. It works as a plot device.

 

July 31, 2012 6:14 pm  #102


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

ancientsgate wrote:

The Doctor wrote:

"John is a bit like the brother Sherlock doesn't have. "

I always wondered if Gattis and Moffat will one day explain the deviation from the canon. In the original, Sherlock and Mycroft have a great brotherly relationship, but in the show it is transferred to John instead. I wonder why? In the book the three of them went along just fine.
Then again, might have 'just' been an attempt to create more tension -it's what makes for riveting television!

And yes, I realise they have 20+ years left to end up where the canon starts ;)

Yes, maybe they're working up to it. Because this show is a prequel, maybe they decided to make the brothers contentious at first but gradually (or maybe suddenly, who knows?) they'll have a change of heard and get "brotherly".

To me, they're pretty brotherly even now. Except for the thing Mycroft did, telling Moriarty all about Sherlock in exchange for some criminal information, Mycroft has actually been looking out for his brother, in his own peculiar way.

Maybe Gattiss didn't want more screen time than he already has. Plus, as you said, the tension is very interesting, so there is that. It works as a plot device.

I think both Sherlock and Mycroft are too cold and calculating to have a good brotherly relationship onscreen. I'm not saying they don't care about each other or anything, but their characters just don't have the chemistry for the kind of brotherly relationship Sherlock and John have.

 

July 31, 2012 6:19 pm  #103


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Mycroft, dear brother, how aaaaare you?   


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

July 31, 2012 10:06 pm  #104


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Mattlocked wrote:

Mycroft, dear brother, how aaaaare you?   

Lots of envy there, on both sides. And anger. Old problems, as Mycroft told John (and I suspect it was more serious than stealing each other's action figures).

I have two adult sons who are 38 and 29, and my oldest washed his hands of his brother "I'm done with him." about 2 years ago. Devastated me. He's a short-sighted fool, IMO, swears nothing happened to precipitate this, but he's done with his brother, his sister-in-law and their two beautiful little children, who now have no aunt and uncle from our side of the family.  Life's too short. What a waste.

So when Mycroft and Sherlock start in, I want to slap some sense into both of them. Idiots.

But again, it's a plot device (were that my sons' trouble was only a plot device) and it brings a lot of tension, angst, and stuff to wonder about to the watchers. I don't know if Mycroft and Sherlock really are just two great big a**holes, or if they're just drawn that way.  Maybe both. Sigh.

 

July 31, 2012 10:11 pm  #105


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Envy - I could tell you stories and stories from my own family now..........Doesn't belong in here. But I don't understand either and am really sad sometimes. As you say: Life's too short!


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

July 31, 2012 10:41 pm  #106


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Arya wrote:

I think both Sherlock and Mycroft are too cold and calculating to have a good brotherly relationship onscreen. I'm not saying they don't care about each other or anything, but their characters just don't have the chemistry for the kind of brotherly relationship Sherlock and John have.

John is in Sherlock's employ, and he also has to live with him, face him across the breakfast table, share a bathroom, use the same washer and dryer, try to find a snack in a fridge that has a head on a plate in it. His relationship (friendship, flatmate, employee) needs and issues are waaaay different from Mycroft's with Sherlock. Naturally.

Both involve a form of love, friendship and partnership (close working relationship) love on one hand, and blood love on the other. But human relationships are many times very complicated, and that's the understatement of the century. Especially with men, who often know only anger as a genuine emotion, and who often resort to snark and/or their fists to resolve things. Or turning their backs on one another. The nuances of relationship management are lost on them, generally speaking.

 

August 1, 2012 5:23 am  #107


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

monitaa wrote:

He must've.. probably in school.. He has strong opinions about women..likes to stay away from them.. so there must be some solid reason for that.. I think he's had a past.. maybe no sexual relationship...but jst a school/college crush or a gf..

I doubt that comes from bad relationship experiences though. I can't imagine him getting hurt by a woman. I'd think he'd just call her stupid and move on lol... I also can't imagine any woman remaining with him long enough to be in a relationship with him if he can't even manage to keep a flatmate. Maybe his strong opinion about women comes from the idea that women operate more from an emotional perspective than a mental one and he finds it very annoying.


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“The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn!" - Jack Kerouac
 

August 1, 2012 7:36 am  #108


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

VivaCohen wrote:

monitaa wrote:

He must've.. probably in school.. He has strong opinions about women..likes to stay away from them.. so there must be some solid reason for that.. I think he's had a past.. maybe no sexual relationship...but jst a school/college crush or a gf..

I doubt that comes from bad relationship experiences though. I can't imagine him getting hurt by a woman. I'd think he'd just call her stupid and move on lol... I also can't imagine any woman remaining with him long enough to be in a relationship with him if he can't even manage to keep a flatmate. Maybe his strong opinion about women comes from the idea that women operate more from an emotional perspective than a mental one and he finds it very annoying.

Yepp! AND sometimes the one or the other can bring disorder into his mind-palace, confuses him. So better stay away from them!


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 1, 2012 9:13 am  #109


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Well as already said there are different types of asexuals. He's obviously problems with empathy, he simply doesn't understand feelings, especially romantic ones. I always feel very sorry for Molly, but I can't be mad at him because he doesn't react that way because he's mean. He even tries to do the right thing, like in "The Great Game" when he tells Molly that Jim is gay and later tells John "I saved her time, isn't that kinder"?

Maybe he would even like the sexual part, but he never tried it or maybe he had.


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Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from!
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August 1, 2012 1:44 pm  #110


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

We women don't often realize the extent of influence and emotional effect we have on our men. Men think they rule the world, but they really do not. Women (GFs, wives, moms, grandmothers) hold most of the control. If a man cares for a woman deeply, she has a profound influence over his heart and head. The potential for hurt, long-lasting hurt, is vast. Sherlock's not inhuman; he has feelings like anyone else, whether or not he wants to listen to them or act on them. Perhaps he's summarily decided that everything but his work is "only transport", but in his heart? In the deepest, darkest part of the night? He knows better.

 

August 1, 2012 6:07 pm  #111


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Ivy- if you think Sherlock is asexual and doesn't understand feelings, then how do you explain the end of SiB? Why do you think he saved Irene?

Ancientsgate- Agreed. 

 

August 1, 2012 6:33 pm  #112


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

ancientsgate wrote:

We women don't often realize the extent of influence and emotional effect we have on our men. Men think they rule the world, but they really do not. Women (GFs, wives, moms, grandmothers) hold most of the control. If a man cares for a woman deeply, she has a profound influence over his heart and head. The potential for hurt, long-lasting hurt, is vast. Sherlock's not inhuman; he has feelings like anyone else, whether or not he wants to listen to them or act on them. Perhaps he's summarily decided that everything but his work is "only transport", but in his heart? In the deepest, darkest part of the night? He knows better.

Amen to that!

Btw. when I said he doesn't understand feelings I didn't mean he is inhuman or a cold monster, but he doesn't understand these romantic things and what you better not say to a person in certain situation. Like he said love is a chemical reaction for him.

(Sometimes it's not easy to find the right words to express yourself when English is not your native language )


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Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from!
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August 1, 2012 9:17 pm  #113


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Ivy have a look at the topic lower down in this section called Sherlock Asperger's Syndrome and Sociopathy. I think it will help explain why he has difficulty with socialising, social norms, emotions etc.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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August 2, 2012 12:26 am  #114


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Arya wrote:

Ivy- if you think Sherlock is asexual and doesn't understand feelings, then how do you explain the end of SiB? Why do you think he saved Irene?
Ancientsgate- Agreed. 

I don't like the idea of an asexual Sherlock, but that's probably just my own preferences speaking. I see him as more normal than that (apologies to anyone here who takes exception with the normal word--- I realize normal is just a setting on a dryer). He told John the body is only transport-- he treats his like he would a vehicle that takes him place to place, an appliance. Which actually does not gibe with the idea of not eating or drinking or sleeping. I'd like to see him put sugar water in the gas tank of an automobile transport, and see how well it climbs hills for him then!

But anyway, I see Sherlock as normally sexualized-- IMO it's a rare man who doesn't fully understand why he was given that block and tackle that's so obvious on his anatomy--  but for reasons of his own, he's shelved all that for a while, using his energies for his work, for thinking, for racing around town like a maniac, etc. My preference is to think that the Right Person (capitals intended) could throw a big, fat monkey wrench into those reasons he's told himself. Like John, who openly admires him and tells him so, who sticks around, when anyone else would have killed Sherlock and then themselves in frustration, who giggles with him, keeps him in line, makes sure there's milk in the fridge next to the experimental body parts, IMO John is just the man to wield that monkey wrench. You go, John!  *happy smile*  Sherlock is not just a man; he's a calling.

 

August 2, 2012 12:30 am  #115


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Davina wrote:

Ivy have a look at the topic lower down in this section called Sherlock Asperger's Syndrome and Sociopathy. I think it will help explain why he has difficulty with socialising, social norms, emotions etc.

Reading that article turned around my whole attitude about Sherlock and why he acts as he does, and put to rest all my trying-to-figure-him-out. What I saw on the show was NOT sociopath behavior, not even high-functioning sociopath behavior.  Apparently when Gatiss wrote that first script, he did not do the research necessary to find out how to label Sherlock-- Sherlock is suffering from what looks very much like Asperger's or some other type of autism. Ah, now it makes sense....  I recommend everyone read that thing that Davina posted.

 

August 2, 2012 12:39 am  #116


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Ivy wrote:

Btw. when I said he doesn't understand feelings I didn't mean he is inhuman or a cold monster, but he doesn't understand these romantic things and what you better not say to a person in certain situation. Like he said love is a chemical reaction for him.
(Sometimes it's not easy to find the right words to express yourself when English is not your native language )

Your English is just fine!

If you buy into the idea of his being autistic, rather than a sociopath, you can understand the saying the wrong thing at the wrong time thing. In fact, he often says nothing at all when anyone else would have verbal diarrhea-- look at how stone cold wordless he is in Kitty's apartment when that f***er Richard Brook appears out of the blue!  He had to really push Sherlock before Sherlock finally explodes, "STOP IT NOW!"  The writers gave all the spluttering and questioning and accusing to John to say. Sherlock was a totem through most of that. So it isn't that he always says the wrong thing at the wrong time, he often just ignores the current conversation and just says what he wants to (he did this with Moriarty in the Baker St scene after court let out). Or nothing at all.

Love is.... love. I can't see it as a totally physical thing, since IMO it has something to do with the soul. And I realize many do not believe that people have souls-- they might see evidence of it in their pets, but they can't believe it about themselves or others, which is really unfortunate. So I don't know about physical chemistry (one might say that's lust, not love, but of course the two can exist side by side!) but falling for someone, real come-hell-or-high-water-us-against-the-world love, is very hard to categorize in a rational way. Love is at least partially irrational, IMO.

 

August 2, 2012 3:01 am  #117


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Ivy and ancientsgate- sorry, I didn't write the last post very well. You English is great, Ivy. I just watched SiB again this morning, and I was still trying to... reorganize my thoughts again, I guess .

I was just wondering why you think Sherlock saved Irene if you don't think he's straight or bi 

IMO, Sherlock's bi. It's the most logical way to explain the end of SiB, and, from a writer's standpoint, it would be too boring to make Sherlock straight after all this time 

 

August 2, 2012 9:12 am  #118


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Davina wrote:

Ivy have a look at the topic lower down in this section called Sherlock Asperger's Syndrome and Sociopathy. I think it will help explain why he has difficulty with socialising, social norms, emotions etc.

Oh no, I totally understand why he has these difficulties. I saw documentaries about Asperger and read about sociopathy. I'm a psychology addict, you know. So I can understand why acts that way.

@ Arya: I'm actually not 100% sure if he's asexual. I just wanted to point out if he is, there are different types.
Sociopathy and Asperger alone are enough reasons for his behaviour. The main "symptoms" for Asperger is lack of empathy and a lack of understanding social interaction and communication between people.
I don't think he has to be straight or bi to help Irene. He is impressed by her, because she's at eye level with him. She obviously triggers feelings in him, that he might understand or not.

Does anyone of my German fellows know the documentation "Expedition ins Gehirn"! Totally interesting, it's on yt, too.

If someone is very tolerant about other people's sexuality it would be Sherlock, because he couldn't care less. *LOL*


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Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from!
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/151103/cun4b2f8.png

 
 

August 2, 2012 9:47 am  #119


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

Ivy wrote:

Well as already said there are different types of asexuals. He's obviously problems with empathy, he simply doesn't understand feelings, especially romantic ones. I always feel very sorry for Molly, but I can't be mad at him because he doesn't react that way because he's mean. He even tries to do the right thing, like in "The Great Game" when he tells Molly that Jim is gay and later tells John "I saved her time, isn't that kinder"?

Maybe he would even like the sexual part, but he never tried it or maybe he had.

Oh certainly he shows all the signs of being asexual at this point in his life. He has no interest in a heterosexual, bi sexual or homosexual relationship it seems. Being asexual doesn't preclude him from having an admiration for anyone of either sex. Not every fascination with another human being has to be sexually related.

As for his apparent lack of understanding feelings, he sees emotions as a chemical reaction; very hard to pin emotive concepts to a chemical reaction huh?

Would he like to have something like a sexual attraction? What for? It serves no purpose in his mind so I doubt we will see that happening anytime soon. And that is what 'attracts' many fans; they cannot understand that kind of mindset. So I doubt Moftiss will ever change that, the attraction will wane when the mystery goes.

Someone asked about his feeling for Irene & saving her. He saved her as he would any person whom he believed to be not worthy of such an ending. His fascination for her was as an equal (almost) so purely a platonic situation there.


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Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

August 2, 2012 9:59 am  #120


Re: D'you think Sherlock has ever had a girlfriend?

I find the last part of ASIB rather like one of those 'aside' cases we read about in the canon, in a way. He 'rescue' being a distraction from boring ordinary life perhaps. Parsley in the butter type of thing.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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