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January 8, 2016 7:59 am  #81


Re: Moriarty's Death

I think Moriarty did have a reason for suicide (either real or fake) - it was his own way of outwitting Sherlock, giving him a situation that he couldn't get out of.  It would make Sherlock possibly responsible for his friends' deaths too.  There was always the possibility that Sherlock wouldn't jump (and in fact, I don't think he would have jumped - it would still make more sense to try to save the friends in some other way).   But if they'd been killed, he'd then have had to live with that and the knowledge that he could have stopped it.  He may have become a rather darker version of himself, which was maybe what Moriarty was aiming to create.

 

January 8, 2016 1:04 pm  #82


Re: Moriarty's Death

My personal opinion of why Moriarty shot himself is because he's batshit crazy.  http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


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January 8, 2016 2:57 pm  #83


Re: Moriarty's Death

Well, of course he is, but at the same time he's a highly intelligent human being (when we look at what he did in the past, he cannot simply be just crazy, and he wouldn't be able to keep up with Sherlock and playing those games with him if he wasn't), and therefore it's still disappointing to believe that killing himself is the solution the writers have come up with to end with this brilliant character.

But unfortunately, I get more and more the impression, that's exactly what they did...


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"Love something, and love it deeply."
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"I don’t care how hypothetical it is, I’m not flying with a live otter in the flight deck."
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January 8, 2016 10:04 pm  #84


Re: Moriarty's Death

James Norrington wrote:

Well, of course he is, but at the same time he's a highly intelligent human being (when we look at what he did in the past, he cannot simply be just crazy, and he wouldn't be able to keep up with Sherlock and playing those games with him if he wasn't), and therefore it's still disappointing to believe that killing himself is the solution the writers have come up with to end with this brilliant character.

Notice how I left out the part I didn't agree with at the bottom of your post. Other than that, I give your comment two thumbs up! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png
 
But I feel compelled to point out that brilliant writers thrive on challenges, and our good friends Mark and Steven have (I remain convinced) presented us with a situation that looks one way but really is another.  Plus, I still think there's a TON of evidence that the rumors of Jim's death have been greatly exaggerate!
 


A good debate is like a fencing match — you don't have to win to get a good workout.
 

January 8, 2016 10:05 pm  #85


Re: Moriarty's Death

I hope you're right!


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January 8, 2016 11:37 pm  #86


Re: Moriarty's Death

Thank you!  Apparently I'm the only one who is convinced it WILL happen, but I'm certainly not the only one who WANTS it to happen.

How do you like my new avatar?
  http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

* Right click on it and select "view image" to see the big version on Photobucket.

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 9, 2016 5:23 am)


A good debate is like a fencing match — you don't have to win to get a good workout.
 

January 9, 2016 2:08 am  #87


Re: Moriarty's Death

Bruce Cook wrote:

James Norrington wrote:

Well, of course he is, but at the same time he's a highly intelligent human being (when we look at what he did in the past, he cannot simply be just crazy, and he wouldn't be able to keep up with Sherlock and playing those games with him if he wasn't), and therefore it's still disappointing to believe that killing himself is the solution the writers have come up with to end with this brilliant character.

Notice how I left out the part I didn't agree with at the bottom of your post. Other than that, I give your comment two thumbs up! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png
 
But I feel compelled to point out that brilliant writers thrive on challenges, and our good friends Mark and Steven have (I remain convinced) presented us with a situation that looks one way but really is another.  Plus, I still think there's a TON of evidence that the rumors of Jim's death have been greatly exaggerate!
 

Sorry. ;) Of course I hope you're right and it turns out to be exactly as you pointed it so marvelously out in your very detailled explanations, I really, really hope that's the case!


------------------------------------------------------------
"Love something, and love it deeply."
Andrew Scott

"I don’t care how hypothetical it is, I’m not flying with a live otter in the flight deck."
Captain Martin Crieff
 

January 9, 2016 5:08 am  #88


Re: Moriarty's Death

The night they air the next episode in 2017, I'll probably have a bottle Vodka next to me so I can drown my sorrows if I'm proven wrong, after shooting my mouth off so publicly for the last few years!  http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/nerdy.png


A good debate is like a fencing match — you don't have to win to get a good workout.
 

January 9, 2016 8:16 am  #89


Re: Moriarty's Death

Be proud and claim it.
I always have done.
I am then perfectly happy to come back and say: ok, well, I was wrong about that, that and that!

Last edited by besleybean (January 9, 2016 8:17 am)


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January 9, 2016 2:50 pm  #90


Re: Moriarty's Death

Bruce Cook wrote:

The night they air the next episode in 2017, I'll probably have a bottle Vodka next to me so I can drown my sorrows if I'm proven wrong, after shooting my mouth off so publicly for the last few years!  http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/nerdy.png

No worries BC.  
I myself spent a couple of years arguing that there was no way in hell Darth Vader was REALLY Luke's father.
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/736x/aa/2b/35/aa2b352725f4c944599a3ea17cbfe44e.jpg    https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb0f8896a79d19602eeaea0254ff5ccd/tumblr_n5ztxjGDB61stgn3no1_500.jpg
 
 

January 9, 2016 2:53 pm  #91


Re: Moriarty's Death

Everyone is just speculating.  If you're wrong, you're wrong, but until we get an answer anyone could be right.


http://orig11.deviantart.net/078e/f/2015/207/f/e/consulting_detective_2_by_sakuranakamura-d92vt40.pnghttp://orig08.deviantart.net/8f4e/f/2015/198/4/2/blogger_by_sakuranakamura-d91o4zv.png
Clueing for looks.
 

January 9, 2016 2:58 pm  #92


Re: Moriarty's Death

tonnaree wrote:

No worries BC.  
I myself spent a couple of years arguing that there was no way in hell Darth Vader was REALLY Luke's father.
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

Hahaha, that's classic! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png


But it's fun to try and predict and since Moftiss are so unpredictable, 99% of our guesses will probably be wrong anyway.

 

January 9, 2016 4:36 pm  #93


Re: Moriarty's Death

Said it before and I say it again: I didn't get the pool resolution...
I was wrong about Sherlock being capable of real violence.
I have to say I think as a fandom, we pretty well got the rooftop leap.
S3, we knew John was gonna belt Sherlock...
But I thought CAM would survive and Mary die(got that very wrong!).
Plus I would never have thought Sherlock able to murder CAM the way he did.
The jury is out on Moriarty: but to begin with I was 100% convinced he was dead...now I've kind of talked myself out of it.

Last edited by besleybean (January 9, 2016 4:37 pm)


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January 12, 2016 1:08 am  #94


Re: Moriarty's Death

tonnaree wrote:

No worries BC.  
I myself spent a couple of years arguing that there was no way in hell Darth Vader was REALLY Luke's father.
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

I did that too.  My reasoning was simple:  Darth Vader was a bad guy with evil intentions and a rotten reputation.  Obi-Wan Kenobi was good guy who would never, ever lie to Luke about something so important.

Therefore, Vader was lying.

I was much younger and more trusting back in those days . . .

 

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 13, 2016 9:49 pm)


A good debate is like a fencing match — you don't have to win to get a good workout.
 

January 12, 2016 6:34 am  #95


Re: Moriarty's Death

Isn't it  a shame we have this innocence and trust beaten out of us?
Well, BBC Sherlock restores my faith in human nature...sort of!


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January 12, 2016 8:59 pm  #96


Re: Moriarty's Death

Hello.

Bruce Cook wrote:

But he was promptly arrested by Mycroft's men, who rushed out onto the roof from where they had waited, in the stairway.  Doesn't it make sense that if they had a whole team down in the street, ready to assist Sherlock with this elaborate plan, they'd also have agents waiting close by to grab Moriarty as soon as Sherlock jumped?
...
He didn't die.  Sherlock thought he did, but Mycroft let him go off for two years to dismantle Moriarty's network thinking Moriarty was dead.

Why do you think Mycroft's people arrested Jim then? Because they were obviously there to assist with Sherlock's landing, so why not do that too?

Why did Mycroft let Sherlock believe Jim was dead, both during his dismantling mission and afterwards?

(FWIW, I have believed Jim is alive since TRF and think it even more likely after TAB. But I thought he escaped and was at large.)
 

 

January 12, 2016 9:09 pm  #97


Re: Moriarty's Death

James Norrington wrote:

And the special actually didn't change anything, because Sherlock always believed Moriarty to be dead after what he had seen and heard on that rooftop. So his sentence about 'of course he's dead' makes sense, but what if he just didn't blow his own brains out?
 

How about: TAB does change things? Before it, Sherlock thought Jim was dead, and only now thinks he is alive? I think that "of course he's dead" line is actually a lie for Mary's benefit.

But I really need to ask this: Why does Sherlock even investigate the question of whether Jim is alive? There is the crisis with Jim's face on all the screens in England, a massive hacking. Why not immediately assume that since he is dead (presumably), then someody else must be behind it? Say, some remnants of his organization?

Bruce, is that related to your saying that Jim was arrested at the end of TRF and now he has escaped? Would you say that it's only in that HLV / TABphone call about the hacking crisis Mycroft still doesn't tell Sherlock that?

 

 

January 12, 2016 9:42 pm  #98


Re: Moriarty's Death

Yes, agree with your second para above, and I think I mentioned something about it earlier (might not have been in this thread) - why doesn't Sherlock just assume that the video we see was pre-recorded?  What's the mystery?    If he actually saw Moriarty's unsurviveable head wound, then why does he need to question whether he's dead or not?   It's not as if TAB actually answers that question (Moriarty is dead, but his supporters could have set things up to look like he's back - really?   Isn't that the just the first thing Sherlock would think?). 

 

January 12, 2016 9:55 pm  #99


Re: Moriarty's Death

This is indeed an interesting question. My only spontaneous answer would be: because Sherlock thinks that Moriarty, if alive, would wish to continue their game in exactly this way. If Jim wants to play with him, he needs Sherlock alive, not on a death mission. This would be no fun. 

The video probably reminds Sherlock of the video set up for him in the cab. Strangely enough, we never see him suspecting that it was Mycroft's doing. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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January 12, 2016 9:57 pm  #100


Re: Moriarty's Death

So it might not be...


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