BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » What are your fall theories? [WITH SPOILERS!!!!!]

sj4iy · July 10, 2013 1:04 pm

It depends on whether or not that person knows about the second rabbit ;)

besleybean · July 10, 2013 1:54 pm

Tee Hee.

sj4iy · July 10, 2013 2:00 pm

anjaH_alias wrote:
I think there is no real clue, it´s more a kind of "psychological warleading" . I have just written it once here in 2012 and copied it now only. I think we should not forget that Moriarty is somehow on the edge, he is insane. My own quote now:
Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss once asked themselves, of what kind somebody could be who frightens us to death nowadays. Their conclusion was - a suicide bomber. Somebody who is so much obsessed with an idea that he is even willing to kill himself. Moriarty is obsessed with Sherlock, to burn him and to kill him. For this he even resists the methods of Mycroft´s interrogations. On the rooftop finally he seems to have solved the final problem: Because there is no recall code Sherlock is willing to jump into his own death to save his friends.
But then Moriarty fluffs: He accidentally reveals that there is a possibility to recall everything.Sherlock realizes that, convinced to get the code out of him, to maybe deduce it. He is not Mycroft and not the King´s horses. He is not even an angel, just on the side of them. He can convince Moriarty that they are still alike, and Moriarty, insane as he is, believes this: If one is able to get anything out of him, this would be Sherlock then (at the point when he realizes that, directly at the end of the sentence "I am not one of them", there is a kind of thunder and lightening camera and sound effect, the moment of Moriarty´s literal enlightment, if you want so). To bring his plan to a successful end he must necessarily kill himself. If Sherlock actually had got the code out of him in the end is left open, but more important is, that he himself was convinced about that, too - look at his eyes, it´s nearly like hypnosis. So he was absolutely able to be deeply persuasive to Moriarty.

Well, all that assumes that Sherlock hasn't figured it to begin with. He has. He knows that Moriarty is going to use his friends to make him kill himself, and he knows how to survive it. But to survive and save his friends, he HAS to convince Moriarty to kill himself. So Sherlock figured it out. I'm sure whatever it is, we know about it...we just can't make senss of it. IOU, Bach and Fairy tales are the clues we are given throughout the episode...but what do they mean? The whole time, though, Moriarty has wanted Sherlock to figure it out...he wants him to be like him...but how? What would make Sherlock "like Moriarty?" That's the clue.

I seriously doubt this has anything to do at all with any sort of persuasion or hypnosis...because Sherlock can't count on persuasion, and he wouldn't believe in hypnosis. No, he convinces Moriarty that he can beat him, and that's what pushes Moriarty into killing himself.

lil · July 10, 2013 3:15 pm

Moriarty starts the game with a text - "Come and play. Tower Hills. Jim Moriarty. X"

What is the game ? Tower Hills - the place for Public executions, that's the game.
Either on order of the crown ( the courtcase ) or by an angry mob ( the press )
Moriarty is inviting Sherlock to kill or be killed

Sherlock fails both with the courtcase ( the crown) , and influencing the press ( angry mob )( deliberatly perhaps.)
That's how he wants Sherlock to be like him .Moriarty has defined a game between them to the death, he wants Sherlock to become a killer. ( sinner?)

Why ? In the Iou graffiti one pair of wings is black , one white .
Angels & Demons . Moriarty wants Sherlock to burn ( in hell?)
Moriarty accuses Sherlock of being with the angels.( going to heaven?)
Could it all be symbolic. At the end it does seem Sherlock agree's to goto hell and burn with Moriarty, " I will shake hands with you in hell..." and Moriarty dies happy . " Bless you Sherlock Holmes. "

Religeous last words from Moriarty almost.

On Bach , the moral of that story is dieing with unfinished business , sherlock replies " That's why your here . " implying Sherlock is expecting Moriarty to die , and Moriarty seems to agree with - " It will be soon...."

As for fairy tales well they are all about Morality and good v evil so also thematic.

And all this is follwed with a miracle , Sherlocks apparant ressurection.

I think we are supposed to get some kinda morality lesson underneath the entertainment .

Last edited by lil (July 10, 2013 3:37 pm)

July 10, 2013 3:58 pm

What kind of morality lesson do you see then? Each IOU wing is both, black and white.
Is Moriarty pure evil? Is Sherlock supposed to be the hero to be always on the bright side?

LESTRADE: Yes. Why is he doing this, the bomber?
(Sherlock stops, keeping his back to the inspector and looking a little anxious.)
LESTRADE: If this woman’s death was suspicious, why point it out?
SHERLOCK (nonchalantly, over his shoulder): Good Samaritan.
(He tries to move away but Lestrade persists.)
LESTRADE: ... who press-gangs suicide bombers?
SHERLOCK: Bad Samaritan.
(Ariane DeVere Sherlock transcript website)

sj4iy · July 10, 2013 4:03 pm

lil wrote:
Moriarty starts the game with a text - "Come and play. Tower Hills. Jim Moriarty. X"

What is the game ? Tower Hills - the place for Public executions, that's the game.
Either on order of the crown ( the courtcase ) or by an angry mob ( the press )
Moriarty is inviting Sherlock to kill or be killed

Sherlock fails both with the courtcase ( the crown) , and influencing the press ( angry mob )( deliberatly perhaps.)
That's how he wants Sherlock to be like him .Moriarty has defined a game between them to the death, he wants Sherlock to become a killer. ( sinner?)

Why ? In the Iou graffiti one pair of wings is black , one white .
Angels & Demons . Moriarty wants Sherlock to burn ( in hell?)
Moriarty accuses Sherlock of being with the angels.( going to heaven?)
Could it all be symbolic. At the end it does seem Sherlock agree's to goto hell and burn with Moriarty, " I will shake hands with you in hell..." and Moriarty dies happy . " Bless you Sherlock Holmes. "

Religeous last words from Moriarty almost.

On Bach , the moral of that story is dieing with unfinished business , sherlock replies " That's why your here . " implying Sherlock is expecting Moriarty to die , and Moriarty seems to agree with - " It will be soon...."

As for fairy tales well they are all about Morality and good v evil so also thematic.

And all this is follwed with a miracle , Sherlocks apparant ressurection.

I think we are supposed to get some kinda morality lesson underneath the entertainment .

I never read it as a morality play. It's more about Sherlock's arc...we see him go from a selfish person who only cares about the thrill of the chase and nothing (and nobody) else, to a man who will sacrifice himself to save his friends. It's a huge milestone, and we see Sherlock become more "human" in each sucessive episode. And even though he doesn't sacrifice his actual life, he sacrifices his "life"...his friends, his career, everything...he puts pride and ego aside to do the right thing. If it is about morality, it's only about Sherlock's morality vs. Moriarty's immorality...and how Sherlock had believed that the only thing separating him from Moriarty was his choice not to do so...and realizing that he couldn't be like Moriarty because he's not that kind of man, and could never be so.

lil · July 10, 2013 4:19 pm

In the first episode Sherlock claims to be a sociopath.
He refers to John for what is good or a bit not good.
Famously Lestrade claims " Sherlock Holmes is a great man , and one day if we are very lucky he will be a good one."
Teaching a sociopath , a non moralistic person what is good and what is not is in every episode from the start , kinda a running joke /theme.

Sherlocks arc ? Exactly.

Last edited by lil (July 10, 2013 4:22 pm)

July 10, 2013 4:33 pm

I hope they don't go this way in the future. How to educate your Sherlock into becoming a good human being? He needs the edge. He is defined this way in canon and here in BBC Sherlock. In canon he plays by his own rules, too. He is edgy in a victorian fashion. To be that way in the 21st century he has to stay even more on the dark side. John's role is to keep the balance.
When they expose him and show his vulnerabitity they have to balance it out with his strength and amorality.
Mr Cumberbatch said in an interview that he will not be vanillafied.

That's why I think that there will be no moral finger to be raised. My interpretation is that there is no black and white, no pure good or evil in a person. Neither in Moriarty nor in Sherlock.

lil · July 10, 2013 4:45 pm

Be wrote:
I hope they don't go this way in the future. How to educate your Sherlock into becoming a good human being? He needs the edge. He is defined this way in canon and here in BBC Sherlock. In canon he plays by his own rules, too. He is edgy in a victorian fashion. To be that way in the 21st century he has to stay even more on the dark side. John's role is to keep the balance.
When they expose him and show his vulnerabitity they have to balance it out with his strength and amorality.
Mr Cumberbatch said in an interview that he will not be vanillafied.

That's why I think that there will be no moral finger to be raised. My interpretation is that there is no black and white, no pure good or evil in a person. Neither in Moriarty nor in Sherlock.

Agree 100% @ be . The whole thing is a thematic balancing act of modern times and underneath the simplistic plotty stuff/entertainment.
Sherlock does keep his edge .He avoids either , does both, and cheats .

July 10, 2013 5:02 pm

lil wrote:
Be wrote:
I hope they don't go this way in the future. How to educate your Sherlock into becoming a good human being? He needs the edge. He is defined this way in canon and here in BBC Sherlock. In canon he plays by his own rules, too. He is edgy in a victorian fashion. To be that way in the 21st century he has to stay even more on the dark side. John's role is to keep the balance.
When they expose him and show his vulnerabitity they have to balance it out with his strength and amorality.
Mr Cumberbatch said in an interview that he will not be vanillafied.

That's why I think that there will be no moral finger to be raised. My interpretation is that there is no black and white, no pure good or evil in a person. Neither in Moriarty nor in Sherlock.

Agree 100% @ be . The whole thing is a thematic balancing act of modern times and underneath the simplistic plotty stuff/entertainment.
Sherlock does keep his edge .He avoids either , does both, and cheats .

Yes. We went a bit off topic, didn't we?

lil · July 10, 2013 5:48 pm

Mofftis said Sh was a man aiming to become a god . (Moffat in interview)

Five pips - religeous secret societies, the apple ,remember eve , black wings white wings good and not good , angels and hell.The Fall , from heaven / good side ?

( more on theese themes in the - king JAMES bible lastedit1885 , the FALL of man ,go via the Apple, Angels get Wings , creating Hell , good/ bad samaritans ,being Burnt ,suide as a sin ,etc )

Coincidences to be written off ? Or....

The great joke is Sherlock tricks both sides, god/devil and good/evil , SH fools/beats them .Becoming godlike himself ?

So lol.

John,lesrade& co , being good , Moriarty & co as evil .
In a canon case SH says " I see no crime here. Only justice." And walks away.
SH decides .He is the inbetween.

In the show the simple answers given will remain, made up code ,Bach as banter & fairy tales and iou , and an airbag/dummy fall solution , all as simple as they seem.
This may be a deeper answer , for those that look.

Ps Apologies if off topic I shall now goto the Benedicts hair thread and Sqeeeeaaal!!.

....actually means that.

Last edited by lil (July 10, 2013 8:04 pm)

sj4iy · July 10, 2013 6:15 pm

Be wrote:
I hope they don't go this way in the future. How to educate your Sherlock into becoming a good human being? He needs the edge. He is defined this way in canon and here in BBC Sherlock. In canon he plays by his own rules, too. He is edgy in a victorian fashion. To be that way in the 21st century he has to stay even more on the dark side. John's role is to keep the balance.
When they expose him and show his vulnerabitity they have to balance it out with his strength and amorality.
Mr Cumberbatch said in an interview that he will not be vanillafied.

That's why I think that there will be no moral finger to be raised. My interpretation is that there is no black and white, no pure good or evil in a person. Neither in Moriarty nor in Sherlock.

He's never going to be cute and cuddly...but having John around humanizes him, even in the original books. They develop a very strong relationship with each other, and it's only natural that he is willing to make concessions to please his friend. Sherlock will never suffer fools, ever...he will probably never have another relationship with a woman (and the one he had was really f***ed up). So I wouldn't worry about it at all. Sherlock will always have bristles.

Sherlock Holmes · July 10, 2013 7:36 pm

Sherlock was completely surprised when Moriarty killed himself. Up until that point he had felt in control of the whole situation. He was acting his way through it, pretending he didn't realise the code wasn't real etc etc. But at that point, when Moriarty blows his head off, that is genuine surprise and shock on Sherlock's face. He isn't acting anymore. And he knows he's going to have to go through with it.

sj4iy · July 10, 2013 7:45 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Sherlock was completely surprised when Moriarty killed himself. Up until that point he had felt in control of the whole situation. He was acting his way through it, pretending he didn't realise the code wasn't real etc etc. But at that point, when Moriarty blows his head off, that is genuine surprise and shock on Sherlock's face. He isn't acting anymore. And he knows he's going to have to go through with it.

Yes, but Sherlock Holmes is a great actor. And if you look at what he's doing during those moments of "shock", it's very calculated. He's touching the top of his head...not grabbing it, but touching it for some reason. Then he holds his arm over his face very deliberately. He's doing something...maybe adding blood packs or something. But he wasn't surprised. He used it as an opportunity to do something he needed to do.

Mattlocked · July 10, 2013 7:50 pm

This is a question which will be answered during S3. I think it was real shock, but we'll see.

sj4iy · July 10, 2013 7:52 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
This is a question which will be answered during S3. I think it was real shock, but we'll see.

I thought it was shock at first, too...but then I realized that Sherlock is counting on Moriarty to kill himself. Why would he be shocked when something he was counting on to happen happened? He's acting.

besleybean · July 10, 2013 8:00 pm

No I agree with The Boss. Sherlock knew HE ws going to be made to commut suicide, but Moriarty's death is a genuine shock.

sj4iy · July 10, 2013 8:06 pm

besleybean wrote:
No I agree with The Boss. Sherlock knew HE ws going to be made to commut suicide, but Moriarty's death is a genuine shock.

Could Sherlock have faked his death if Moriarty were alive? Nope, because then Moriarty would have watched what happened below and would have known what really happened. That's why Sherlock makes Moriarty kill himself, by giving him a dog whistle that only Moriarty understood.

Last edited by sj4iy (July 10, 2013 8:09 pm)

lil · July 10, 2013 9:16 pm

sj4iy wrote:
besleybean wrote:
No I agree with The Boss. Sherlock knew HE ws going to be made to commut suicide, but Moriarty's death is a genuine shock.
Could Sherlock have faked his death if Moriarty were alive? Nope, because then Moriarty would have watched what happened below and would have known what really happened. That's why Sherlock makes Moriarty kill himself, by giving him a dog whistle that only Moriarty understood.

Yes he could.
Dieing is dull, boring , ordinary - that's what people do.
If Moriarty saw SH fake his death , then the game isn't over .That's all.
I think M would be lol/pleased/excited. M said jump not die.
At the last moment M made the recall code mistake so SH saw the chance to win ( not jump )
Moriary shot himself to avoid that ,leaving no option but to jump.

The game was about death, but the objective was to win.
Sh was shocked at M's death,maybe he planned all three scenarios.

Option a SH loose M watching jump = airbag/net landing game continues.
Option B SH wins = safer dummy option.
Option c Draw double suicide = combinatin of both .

Hence the confusing spoilers.

Last edited by lil (July 10, 2013 9:22 pm)

sj4iy · July 10, 2013 9:19 pm

lil wrote:
sj4iy wrote:
besleybean wrote:
No I agree with The Boss. Sherlock knew HE ws going to be made to commut suicide, but Moriarty's death is a genuine shock.
Could Sherlock have faked his death if Moriarty were alive? Nope, because then Moriarty would have watched what happened below and would have known what really happened. That's why Sherlock makes Moriarty kill himself, by giving him a dog whistle that only Moriarty understood.

Yes he could.
Dieing is dull, boring , ordinary - that's what people do.
If Moriarty saw SH fake his death , then the game isn't over .That's all.
I think M would be lol/pleased/excited. M said jump not die.
At the last moment M made the recall code mistake so SH saw the chance to win
Moriary shot himself to avoid that ,leaving no option but to jump.

The game was about death, but the objective was to win.
Sh was shocked at M's death,maybe he planned all three scenarios.

Option a SH loose M watching jump = airbag/net landing game continues.
Option B SH wins = safer dummy option.
Option c Draw double suicide = combinatin of both .

Hence the confusing spoilers.

If he saw him fake his death, he'd kill his friends. He wouldn't keep stringing him along. He wants to win the game....and Moriarty doesn't bluff.