BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Which are the 'Johnlock' moments from Canon ?

Willow · February 7, 2014 6:22 pm

besleybean wrote:
You're right, both are equally great.
But I was referring to The Canon!

Quite so; I have no difficulty with accepting that men can love each other deeply in the way that women can love each other deeply, and, as far as I can tell, ACD felt the same. The problems start when we try to shoehorn our ideas of what people's relationships should be into what people's relationships actually are.

Fortunately Moftiss are ACD fanboys, and have no inclination to overturn The Canon, which is just as well because one of the reasons it remains so fascinating is that ACD got the central relationship exactly right; mess with that and there is a very high probability that you mess it up. After all, 'Sherlock and John get married and live happily ever after' is the kiss of death to 'Sherlock and John have lots of interesting adventures together', not least because one of the things which make the adventures interesting is that they may result in no 'happily ever after' for either of them.

I love to read those parts of The Canon which reveal the depths of the love between Sherlock Holmes and Dr John Watson; I don't feel that it would be even better if it was romantic love because that seems to me to undermine the very idea of love itself, and suggest that what they have is, in some way, inferior to 'the real thing'. I think they've got the real thing already

besleybean · February 7, 2014 7:11 pm

Willow, if I could hug you-I would!
Incidentally, I've just watched the Apple store footage and I thought Martin's comments on ' fan response' to be the most interesting of all...

Last edited by besleybean (February 7, 2014 7:12 pm)

Willow · February 8, 2014 2:47 am

besleybean wrote:
Willow, if I could hug you-I would!
Incidentally, I've just watched the Apple store footage and I thought Martin's comments on ' fan response' to be the most interesting of all...

I would be very happy for a virtual hug

I have only managed to get the transcript, so I may be missing nuances of tone and gesture, but it did seem they were trying to get some facts of life through to the audience, in a very nice way; one of them being that writers eschew fanfic for fear of being accused of plagiarism, and another is that actors create their characters from their lines and the directors input.; the last thing that Benedict needs when he's doing that is someone messing up his brain with cries of 'but you should be acting it differently.'

But yes; Martin's comment was pretty straightforward. Appreciative support and exercising ones artistic talents are great, a Stalinist viewpoint which drives the belief that there is but one true way, and anyone not agreeing with it is a evil scheming person, is not great, and he doesn't like it.

besleybean · February 8, 2014 8:44 am

Well, I possibly wouldn't have quite put that gloss on it!
I was more thinking of Amanda's hate mail:cos how dare a woman come between the 2 boys who are obviosuly shagging each other senseless in all the off screen time!

Last edited by besleybean (February 8, 2014 8:44 am)

Harriet · February 8, 2014 9:59 am

Could you please watch your language here a little more, bb? Thanks

Last edited by Harriet (February 8, 2014 10:04 am)

besleybean · February 8, 2014 10:46 am

Apologies.
Tho it was deliberate, to make a point.
Can't promise, but I will try.
But you realize there had better be no instances of anybody else getting away with swearing!

holmes23 · February 8, 2014 4:59 pm

The following exchange beween Holmes and the clent from SCAN when the latter is not okay with Watson's presence:

"I understand that this gentleman, your friend, is a man of honour and discretion, whom I may trust with a matter of the most extreme importance. If not, I should much prefer to communicate with you alone.”

I rose to go, but Holmes caught me by the wrist and pushed me back into my chair. “It is both, or none,” said he. “You may say before this gentleman anything which you may say to me.”

besleybean · February 8, 2014 5:08 pm

Such loyalty.

Willow · February 8, 2014 8:39 pm

holmes23 wrote:
The following exchange beween Holmes and the clent from SCAN when the latter is not okay with Watson's presence:

"I understand that this gentleman, your friend, is a man of honour and discretion, whom I may trust with a matter of the most extreme importance. If not, I should much prefer to communicate with you alone.”

I rose to go, but Holmes caught me by the wrist and pushed me back into my chair. “It is both, or none,” said he. “You may say before this gentleman anything which you may say to me.”

It's a wonderful exchange; thank you for reminding us!

SherlocklivesinOH · February 10, 2014 2:54 am

holmes23 wrote:
nicbooful wrote:
Can you imagine if Holmes and Watson were gay (or bi)? If they truly did love each other in that way then how beautiful, but tragic,that would be? They do spend their lives together and know they need each other but because of the restraints of society, at that time, never crossed into sexual relations.

Yes, it would be tragic but at the sametime beautiful. I don't know really, but I always imagine SH as a tragic hero.

If we could read in between lines, we would realise canon is not just about crimes and detection but about exploring the nuances of the relationships between the main characters.

For example, what do you all think of this paasage from The Norwood Builder?

At the time of which I speak, Holmes had been back for some months, and I at his request had sold my practice and returned to share the old quarters in Baker Street. A young doctor, named Verner, had purchased my small Kensington practice, and given with astonishingly little demur the highest price that I ventured to ask–an incident which only explained itself some years later, when I found that Verner was a distant relation of Holmes, and that it was my friend who had really found the money.

At the very least, this certainly speaks to how much Holmes wanted Watson back, and the buying of the practice makes me feel like he wants to "possess" Watson... wants Watson to "belong" to him. I don't mean in the CAM sense, certainly, more in a "committed relationship" way. It sounds a little bit like a proposal. Not that Holmes would even necessarily have said it that way to Watson, but he did ask Watson to, by giving up his practice, make a long-term commitment to be a partner to Holmes in some sense. Are Holmes and Watson sharing the client fees? Or is Holmes supporting Watson financially?

SherlocklivesinOH · February 10, 2014 2:56 am

holmes23 wrote:
From The Illustrious Client:

I think I could show you the very paving-stone upon which I stood when my eyes fell upon the placard, and a pang of horror passed through my very soul. It was between the Grand Hotel and Charing Cross Station, where a one-legged news-vender displayed his evening papers. The date was just two days after the last conversation. There, black upon yellow, was the terrible news-sheet:
MURDEROUS ATTACK UPON
SHERLOCK HOLMES
I think I stood stunned for some moments. Then I have a confused recollection of snatching at a paper, of the remonstrance of the man, whom I had not paid, and, finally, of standing in the doorway of a chemist’s shop while I turned up the fateful paragraph.
........
I need not say that my eyes had hardly glanced over the paragraph before I had sprung into a hansom and was on my way to Baker Street
.............
The sufferer was wide awake, and I heard my name in a hoarse whisper.............
I sat beside him and bent my head.
“All right, Watson. Don’t look so scared,” he muttered in a very weak voice. “It’s not as bad as it seems.”
“Thank God for that!”
..........
“What can I do, Holmes? Of course, it was that damned fellow who set them on. I’ll go and thrash the hide off him if you give the word.”

As much as I wouldn't normally want to see any guy on television hit his wife, I was kind of disappointed BBC's John didn't have a reaction more like this when Mary shot Sherlock.

SherlocklivesinOH · February 10, 2014 2:57 am

kittykat wrote:
holmes23 wrote:
From The Devil's Foot

At the same moment, in some effort of escape, I broke through that cloud of despair and had a glimpse of Holmes’s face, white, rigid, and drawn with horror–the very look which I had seen upon the features of the dead. It was that vision which gave me an instant of sanity and of strength. I dashed from my chair, threw my arms round Holmes, and together we lurched through the door, and an instant afterwards had thrown ourselves down upon the grass plot and were lying side by side, conscious only of the glorious sunshine..,
Oh my...can't wait to read that part!

Series 4, yes? Maybe?

In canon, when Holmes apologizes for this, Watson replies, "It is my greatest joy and privilege to help you." In the series with Jeremy Brett Watson actually bawls Holmes out for this experiment...which Holmes acknowledges he deserves.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 10, 2014 3:19 am)

SherlocklivesinOH · February 10, 2014 3:13 am

besleybean wrote:
Ironically, I do feel Holmes and Watson are far more openly affectionate with each other than the BBC Sherlock boys and I rather regret that.

YES! The word "love" is even used, and Holmes frequently touches Watson or invades his personal space in some manner.

Jeremy Brett was a very affectionate Holmes, too, especially with the second of the two Watsons in that series, which was Brett's real-life friend Edward Hardwicke. Brett didn't like when Holmes had to kiss Milverton's maid (the original Janine) in that series, because he didn't think it fit Holmes, given Holmes' ambiguous sexuality.

Of course, Brett himself had at least one (I think, two) romances with other men.

I think ACD's Holmes and Watson's relationship (be it a friendship or whatever) is overall healthier than in BBC, even though there is a leader-follower thing going on, and even though Holmes does say less-than-kind things when Watson fails to deduce like Holmes does.

BBC's John and Sherlock have more frequent instances of fighting, and being mean to each other, than any other Holmes and Watson I have seen.

SherlocklivesinOH · February 10, 2014 3:16 am

Willow wrote:
holmes23 wrote:
The following exchange beween Holmes and the clent from SCAN when the latter is not okay with Watson's presence:

"I understand that this gentleman, your friend, is a man of honour and discretion, whom I may trust with a matter of the most extreme importance. If not, I should much prefer to communicate with you alone.”

I rose to go, but Holmes caught me by the wrist and pushed me back into my chair. “It is both, or none,” said he. “You may say before this gentleman anything which you may say to me.”
It's a wonderful exchange; thank you for reminding us!

In Redheaded League, Watson arrives while Holmes is already with the client, and Watson offers to "wait in the next room." The author of the Decoding the Subtext blog (previously posted) thinks he's offering to wait in Holmes' bedroom. Regardless, it appears Watson was coming to visit Holmes for some purpose other than a case.

And during SCAN, Watson is married, yet spends the night at Baker Street. In Twisted Lip, married Watson rescues a friend from an opium dean (yes, HLV used that one), runs into Holmes there, and accompanies Holmes to the home of Holmes' newly-acquired client to spend the night...in the same guest room, which is referred to as "doubled-bedded," though I think there are two beds.

besleybean · February 10, 2014 6:54 am

I suspect it could well have been a double bed.
No problem with 2 male friends sharing a bed.

holmes23 · February 10, 2014 5:13 pm

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
holmes23 wrote:
If we could read in between lines, we would realise canon is not just about crimes and detection but about exploring the nuances of the relationships between the main characters.

For example, what do you all think of this paasage from The Norwood Builder?

At the time of which I speak, Holmes had been back for some months, and I at his request had sold my practice and returned to share the old quarters in Baker Street. A young doctor, named Verner, had purchased my small Kensington practice, and given with astonishingly little demur the highest price that I ventured to ask–an incident which only explained itself some years later, when I found that Verner was a distant relation of Holmes, and that it was my friend who had really found the money.
At the very least, this certainly speaks to how much Holmes wanted Watson back, and the buying of the practice makes me feel like he wants to "possess" Watson... wants Watson to "belong" to him. I don't mean in the CAM sense, certainly, more in a "committed relationship" way. It sounds a little bit like a proposal. Not that Holmes would even necessarily have said it that way to Watson, but he did ask Watson to, by giving up his practice, make a long-term commitment to be a partner to Holmes in some sense.

Holmes really wanted Watson back at any cost. But he never disclosed, at least for a few years, to Watson that it was he who actually found the money. Why the secrecy? Was he afraid to hurt Watson's pride?
Just imagin the scene which was never written, when Watson reported Holmes about how a man named Verner was ready to purchase his practice by paying the highest price he ventured to ask, and Holmes pretending that it's the first time he heard of Verner

At the time of which I speak, Holmes had been back for some months, and I at his request had sold my practice and returned to share the old quarters in Baker Street.

ACD could have stopped here. It's enough for a detective fiction writer to put the sidekick back to his rightful place. But he didn't. He continued:

A young doctor, named Verner, had purchased my small Kensington practice, and given with astonishingly little demur the highest price that I ventured to ask–an incident which only explained itself some years later, when I found that Verner was a distant relation of Holmes, and that it was my friend who had really found the money.

Why? The plot doesn't require these words - not a read herring or anything. Are these words required to show their deep friendship? But it's a passage about the secrecy on Holmes' part. Imo, it's to show the complex relationship that exists between them.

Are Holmes and Watson sharing the client fees? Or is Holmes supporting Watson financially?

It's not an easy question to answer! Holmes and Watson sharing the client fees would make their relationship a pragmatic one.

The concept of Holmes supporting Watson financially isn't altogether a good one, because it would make the balance of their relationship change. Canon never gives the idea that Watson is inferior to Holmes because of his lack of wealth.

Though it was the monetory considerations which brought them together for the first time, ever after that it never seems to be a matter of importance when the two are concerned. Watson never is a greedy person, he is attracted to Holmes not because of the latter's wealth.

"Your check book is locked in my drawer, and you have not asked for the key" - DANC
Yes, there are lines like these, but just to add complexity to their already complex relationship.

Last edited by holmes23 (February 10, 2014 5:15 pm)