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March 18, 2013 8:48 am  #1


Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

I know it's not going to be appriciated here, but isn't it possible that the Sherlock series are slightly overrated? I mean, I like them, Cumberbatch does a great job playing Holmes, but the plot of the episodes aren't really that well... I mean, the end of the blind banker is just stupid. And what about the huge cliffhanger at the end of the great game? Just a simple phonecall, and it's gone. Too easy, if you ask me. Again, I like the show, but the adoration of Sherlock goes a little to far in my opinion.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

March 18, 2013 8:58 am  #2


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

Of course there are many weak points in every episode's plots.  But Sherlock isn't about the mysteries in the first place - it's about the mystery that is "Sherlock". And dealing with this mystery is so beautifully done - mainly thanks to the wonderful chemistry between the two leads. Who cares about a flawless whodunnit if one can have this unique series?


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!




                                                                                                                  
 

March 18, 2013 10:28 am  #3


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

The acting is well done, yes, but I would recommend that they stick more closely to the novels, updating Holmes - all right - but make a good story of it too.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
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March 18, 2013 10:55 am  #4


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

All the artists together have managed to create something very special. It's not only the excellent acting and writing, it's also e.g. the wonderful and innovative photography which evokes a London that is modern and classic at the same time. Then there's the production and costume design which has become iconic: Imagine you just need to see a blue scarf or a skull or a walking cane and you immediately think Sherlock!. It is more than the sum of its parts and surely far more than the perceived quality of the scripts. 
And another thing about the scripts - it's not just the plot that matters, it's also the quality of the dialogue. And to watch it for the first time in English was like a sort of revelation to me because the dialogues were so brilliant. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 18, 2013 11:21 am  #5


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

Overrated? By whom? Are you referring to the positive remarks or do you think the fandom goes too far?
Though, I would never describe the plot as 'easy'. Again, the plot is just a minor point, the series focuses clearly on the main characters. In my opinion it's always nice when you can get excited about something.
 


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"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



 

March 18, 2013 1:38 pm  #6


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

Of course, but I get exited about Sherlock Holmes, the Conan-Doyle character. For many people, Sherlock was their first 'real' meeting with the character Sherlock Holmes. I am afraid that Sherlock gives a false impression about the 'real' Sherlock Holmes. Again, Cumberbatch plays the part well, but in my opinion the series should stick more closely to the original Holmes, also in the plotlines. 


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     Thread Starter
 

March 18, 2013 1:44 pm  #7


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

Jacco111 wrote:

but in my opinion the series should stick more closely to the original Holmes, also in the plotlines. 

But this has been done before many times. Maybe the Jeremy Brett series might suit you best.


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!




                                                                                                                  
 

March 18, 2013 2:04 pm  #8


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

I watched them all, several times ;)


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 18, 2013 2:07 pm  #9


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

What I meant was, keep the modern Holmes (original idea, nothing wrong with doing it) and modernize the ACD stories, but keep the structure and plots. A little twist isn't necessarily bad, but making a (less good) other story of it is, in my opinion, not the best way of doing it.


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March 18, 2013 2:15 pm  #10


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

A friend told me once that she liked "Sherlock" a lot, but the cases are a bit simple (well she reads a lot of crime, mostly the Scandinavians). I told her it's not about the cases it's about the man und his deductions and the brilliant dialogues, who cares about the solution.

I think if you really like a show there's not too much adoration.

But thanks that you dared to criticise Jacco. That should be possible.

 


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Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from!


 
 

March 18, 2013 2:15 pm  #11


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

IMO, Sherlock is unique because of the camera work and the inventive script. This Sherlock is not just CSI Baker Street which would be boring. We have seen almost everything -CSI in american TV before.
In BBC Sherlock there are many layers to detect, double meaning and metaphors, funny puns and a puzzle that keeps the audience thinking about the plot and the relationships.
Sherlock made me and many people read the canon in english to get acess to the original Sherlock Holmes character.
I haven't seen anything like that in televison in my life.
 

 

March 18, 2013 2:22 pm  #12


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

That's great Be, but the thing I am afraid of is that people will see Sherlock as the real Holmes, he isn't, it is a clever adaptation, likable, good quality and all, but it isn't the real Sherlock Holmes we see in the stories. It is great if Sherlock makes people interested in the stories, but, judging of some reactions (mostly annoying Sherlock and John lovestory reactions) some people don't get the essence of who Sherlock Holmes is.
By the way, I thought the same about the american Holmes movies, great movies, but the lovestory of Irene Adler - Sherlock Holmes is terrible.
I really hope the writers will be sticking more to the ACD version of Holmes, the real Holmes.

Last edited by Jacco111 (March 18, 2013 2:23 pm)


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March 18, 2013 2:27 pm  #13


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

But then, I may be a bit too old-fashioned in this case

It's just that I read the Holmes stories at a very young age (I believe I was about 7 when I first read 'The Hound of the Baskervilles' ) and I feel a very strong connection with the stories. I understand that it is different for someone who saw Sherlock first and read the stories after. 


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     Thread Starter
 

March 18, 2013 2:34 pm  #14


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

Well, I have to admit that Benedict is my Sherlock. I'm totally aware that there are original books by Sir ACD, I have massive fans in my family. I'm just not that interested in the original or other adaptations. The only association that I had was Dr Watson and 221B Baker Street.
Like I said already, they could have called the show "Peter Miller" and I'd have watched it.


Nobody is forced to watch the adaptations.

And how boring would it be when filmmakes would always show the same Sherlock Holmes from the books.


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Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from!


 
 

March 18, 2013 2:47 pm  #15


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

In my case it was different: I read the whole canon long, long ago and liked it. And then, decades later, I discovered SH again via the movies and Sherlock. And I got really hooked, read part of the canon again and some very good pastiches. I'm no purist. I love how there are so many ways to take on the case work and the personal relationships. 
And - this may sound very "blasphemous" - none of the original stories gripped me as hard as Sherlock and some of the fanfics and pastiches I read. I must admit I sometimes forgot to breathe which never happened when reading the canon. 

As for the Jeremy Brett series, I gave it a fair try but could never connect to it. I know it's almost sacrosanct but for me it simply doesn't work. 

I'm aware of the fact that without ACD's creations we wouldn't be here today. But as with Shakespeare - and this is meant as a compliment - the wonderful thing is how the works last just because they are interpreted and adapted to the changing times again and again. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 18, 2013 2:48 pm  #16


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

I understand that you are emotionally involved in your understanding of the character of Sherlock Holmes. Everybody is allowed to imgine and interpret his or her interpretation of literature. That is what literature is about. You can interpret it in several ways.
In Germany, where I live, there is another iconic character which is Winnetou (Karl May). Everybody in Germany knows him and has a kind of understanding how he should look like and how the novel should be interpreted in films. Germans have a strong relationship with this character and I imagine that I would be annoyed if my image of him would be touched in a way that I can't stand.
I am not raised with Sherlock Holmes like I am with Winnetou, but I think that Sherlock is really authenic in a special way.  Of course they are playing with him a bit and some things are over the top. But in victorian times Sherlock Holmes was equally new and inventive. And we see in every image that the writers love their/our Sherlock very much.
In TBB Soo Lin Yao said:  It's made to be handled, to be touched. Not to sit behind glass.
 

 

March 18, 2013 2:48 pm  #17


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

I think that the version with Jeremy Brett stuck so close to the original, the "real" Holmes and the rest of the canon, that there is no need to adapt it so closely again. Why would you want to replace a well done show with something equally well, just newer?

I must admit that I had problems with reading the canon stories before "Sherlock". When I read something, I always see the action in my head, like a film, but I never managed to see Holmes. He always turned out to be some kind of animation character. That is fine with me if the entire action is animated, like it happens when I read Discworld novels. But Watson and every else have always been real persons, just Holmes refused to come real. Now when I read the stories I can lean back and enjoy imagining Benedict as Sherlock in funny clothings and I grew extremely fond of the canon.

By the way, I think ending the pool dilemma simply by a phone call was the cleverest way to do a cliffhanger I've ever seen - and I must admit that I've seen many and many of them from all kind of shows.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

March 18, 2013 2:54 pm  #18


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

Well, I don't agree with you Susi, but we are entitled to our own opinions aren't we? ;)

I think Sherlock is a nice experiment, Sherlock Holmes in modern days (not original though but never mind). And it works this time, I think this is the best Sherlock Holmes in modern days version there is made. Far better then the 'Rathbone fights the nazi's' and the 'Sherlock Holmes brought to New York in the future by scientists' versions ;). 
But I don't agree with Moffat and Gattis that Sherlock Holmes is not about the gaslight and all. For me, that is part of the charm. Of course the main focus should be Holmes' deduction, but the late Victorian era and the whole atmosphere places Holmes in the right dimension.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 18, 2013 2:57 pm  #19


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

Jacco111 wrote:

But then, I may be a bit too old-fashioned in this case

It's just that I read the Holmes stories at a very young age (I believe I was about 7 when I first read 'The Hound of the Baskervilles' ) and I feel a very strong connection with the stories. I understand that it is different for someone who saw Sherlock first and read the stories after. 

According to me - and, yes, I´ve read all of the stories when I was young as well! - BBC Sherlock brings the original spirit to us. With a lot of quotes and nods and subtle allusions to ACD. Moffat and Gatiss never really break that, although the stories are new invented or patchworked. But the original spirit, the pattern of them, the relations and basic characters are absolutely true to me. For me the whole series is a "Gesamtkunstwerk", which is defined by the passion of all participants: The writers first of all, but also the actors, the composers (!), the screen builders, camera people, the directors, prop masters, everybody. They all got infected from the writers and, of course, ACD. That is, what makes "Sherlock" so special, so extraordinary. "There´s so much love about it" Andrew Scott once said and one can feel that.
I don´t have any problems with changing the stories, at least because a lot of the original stories couldn´t happen nowadays like they were. And I have seen already a lot of the older Sherlock Holmes-films  - I don´t need this in a new version only with new camera technologies and new actors. What for, they are done, we already have them! Sherlock is a very sensitive adaptation, which never looses the contact to the canon (like e.g. "Elementary" does). I adore that.
I am not such a fan of Johnlock stories as well, most of them bore me (but, honestly, I didn´t read too many), But, on the other hand, if somebody likes that - why not? It has a lot to do with their own fantasy, the fantasy of the readers, so, if they like it, it´s absolutely fine with me. It has not much to do with "Sherlock", so it can´t be a point against that series. "Sherlock" at the utmost arouses the fantasies, which could be another quality of the series, although it´s not my cup of tea. But, at this point of time, there is no Johnlock in "Sherlock", just little nods to some interpretations. What is fine, it´s part of the whole canon.
So, no, I don´t think "Sherlock" is overrated, it´s a fine, clever piece of arts, which never looses the contact to the heart of ACD.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (March 18, 2013 3:30 pm)

 

March 18, 2013 3:02 pm  #20


Re: Sherlock perhaps a little overrated?

'Why would you want to replace a well done show with something equally well, just newer?'

Several reasons:
- The Granada series is a product of the 80's and early 90's, television and film moved on. I like the series but I can very well understand that someone who is not familiar with Sherlock Holmes finds the Granada series to be boring. The show is a bit 'slow' especcially the sign of four movie with Jeremy Brett, which I myself found to be rather boring ;).
- The current revival of Sherlock Holmes is great, but the shadowside is that the real Holmes is being forgotten, he is replaced by Sherlock and Robert Downey Jr.
- We all belong to a new generation, many people don't read anymore, they watch TV. We should let people meet the Holmes from the books on television, but then in a true and representative way.

'By the way, I think ending the pool dilemma simply by a phone call was the cleverest way to do a cliffhanger I've ever seen - and I must admit that I've seen many and many of them from all kind of shows'

Please explain, because I don't see it...


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