BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The Imitation Game

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 3:26 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
I'm not sure anybody wants to see (and hear!) this, but here is the dubbed German trailer for TIG. In my opinion Alan sounds like the german Sherlock - it's the same dubbing actor and he just talks like Sherlock would talk. I already expected it to be a difficult job to dub Benedict in this film, but it seems they didn't even try to come in any way close to what Benedict did...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XLY3DDfoC2U

OK, well, that was pretty cool! *smile* Whoever that guy is who did BC's voice is not even trying to sound like Ben, of course. Too high-pitched, too ordinary, too not-Ben. It was weird for me to watch that, with Ben's mouth moving but someone else's voice and language. Definitely the way to see it, though, for the non-English-speakers-- much better than subtitles, in a way, don't you think? Big BC fans will want to hear his voice, I imagine, so that for them, subtitles might be more fun.

Is it strange, as a German, to watch movies produced in the US or the UK, where the Germans are the archenemy and judged harshly as part of the movie's plot? I've always wondered about that, what it must be like viewing such movies from a German perspective.

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 3:28 pm

Liberty wrote:
Is that the way it will normally be shown in Germany? We don't get to see many dubbed films here in the UK. Usually non-English films have subtitles (which I prefer).

My understanding has been that in the large cities in Germany, people will have a choice of dubbing or subtitles, but that out in the smaller areas, big-release movies are shown with dubbing, while small movies have subtitles because it's cheaper to produce. I might be wrong. I do think it'd be nice to have the choice.

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 3:35 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Yes, in Germany everything is dubbed. Some cinemas show the original version with subtitles but most do not and in television everything is dubbed. They often to their jobs quite well but it is not the same experience.
And changing a character's way of speaking like they apparently have done with Turing is really terrible. The voice is too deep - Benedict himself speaks in a higher voice than usual - and it seems they completely ignored the stammer he took such pains to recreate. No idea why. I remember they kept Derek Jacobi's famous stammer in "I Claudius". This is an important part of recreating a character.

I'm not yet familiar with Ben's Turing voice, so I sat here thinking how high-pitched the voice was and so very odd, compared to his natural voice or that deep voice he puts on for certain purposes. Some people who do dubbing strive to get things just right, others just get the job done in whatever way is quickest and cheapest, I suppose. I agree that it'd be nice if they got the dubbing the way the original voice was done, but maybe that's too subtle, too much to ask, for those who do that work but don't otherwise have a clue.

We English-speakers are very very spoiled, since most big films are done in English to start with, so it's not often we have to deal with dubbing or subtitles. I remember about 100 years ago, going to the theater to see "Never On Sunday" with a friend and her Greek-born mom. The film was in the original Greek, with English subtitles. While my friend and I saw nothing funny going on, her mom was constantly cracking up, because she understood the Greek. Obviously the subtitles were lacking something!

SusiGo · November 12, 2014 3:35 pm

In larger cities you sometimes have a choice but never for all the movies that are currently shown but only for a certain number. Basically all films are shown in dubbing, in cinemas as well as in television, and the vast majority of viewers only knows those versions (although in Germany everybody has to learn English at school). Many people of my acquaintance prefer not having to read subtitles or do not trust their knowledge of English to understand enough to enjoy the film without them. Which is a pity but there you are.

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 3:36 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Just stupidity or lack of care. Like Siezlock.

Right. They don't care enough to try to get it right. What is Siezlock?

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 3:37 pm

mrshouse wrote:
In the German language we say that hope dies last...
Is it similar in English?

Hope springs eternal is how we say it.

SusiGo · November 12, 2014 3:39 pm

Well, until the scene when John asks Sherlock to be his best man they have used the formal German address "Sie" instead of the informal "du" which is completely ridiculous. Some people have made fun of it calling it Siezlock. It really destroyed a big part of the chemistry between them and is very unrealistic on top. Two friends living together would never ever address each other like that.

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 3:43 pm

SusiGo wrote:
In larger cities you sometimes have a choice but never for all the movies that are currently shown but only for a certain number. Basically all films are shown in dubbing, in cinemas as well as in television, and the vast majority of viewers only knows those versions (although in Germany everybody has to learn English at school). Many people of my acquaintance prefer not having to read subtitles or do not trust their knowledge of English to understand enough to enjoy the film without them. Which is a pity but there you are.

I don't know what learning English in school consists of in Germany, how early it starts or how intense the training is, but if it's anything like learning German in school here in the US, faggedaboutit-- unless the person uses the other language very intensely in their real life, no one would ever get fluent enough to truly sit and enjoy a film in their non-native language. English is a very difficult language, plus in film and TV you have the American vs. British accent thing to deal with, and I can imagine that most Germans would enjoy any film or TV show more with dubbing or subtitles. One thing about subtitles, if you find some dialogue going on that you're not following, it's easy enough to switch your eyes to the subtitles and quickly get a clue about what's being said.

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 3:46 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Well, until the scene when John asks Sherlock to be his best man they have used the formal German address "Sie" instead of the informal "du" which is completely ridiculous. Some people have made fun of it calling it Siezlock. It really destroyed a big part of the chemistry between them and is very unrealistic on top. Two friends living together would never ever address each other like that.

Ah. Got it. Interesting. We English-speakers have no clue about formal vs. informal or about nouns having a gender attached, but.... my common sense tells me that that was a major bit of stupidity, using the Sie in that case. I really have to wonder, are the people doing dubbing even paying attention?

Last edited by ancientsgate (November 12, 2014 3:46 pm)

SolarSystem · November 12, 2014 4:20 pm

Well, compared to English, German is a far more difficult language to learn. I also took several years of French in school and believe me, again this was far more difficult than English.

I general I would say that in Germany they really take great care when it comes to dubbing. You don't have movies that are 'better' dubbed than others, Hollywood blockbuster or little independent flim, the dubbing is equally good.
But the 'problem' is that an actor does not only consist of his body language and his facial expressions, it's also the voice. So many emotions are conveyed through the voice, and a dubbing actor will never be able to get this right. You just can't copy the voice of someone else, even if the timbre, the sound happens to be quite similar. Furthermore, especially actors who aren't all that famous yet tend to have different German 'voices' - for example, at the moment there still are two different actors who do the dubbing for Benedict. Khan's German voice was not the same as Sherlock's, for example. And this is just unbelievably irritating. And since we all know what Benedict's own voice sounds like... well, that makes it even worse.

SolarSystem · November 12, 2014 4:32 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Is it strange, as a German, to watch movies produced in the US or the UK, where the Germans are the archenemy and judged harshly as part of the movie's plot? I've always wondered about that, what it must be like viewing such movies from a German perspective.

For me it doesn't feel weird or strange at all. I am aware that movies like TIG deal with events that did take place and which should never be forgotten. May it be "Schindler's List" or "The Pianist" or "Saving Private Ryan" or other movies that tell stories from WW II, when I watch them I am very much aware that these things happened because people in my home country did terrible things and made decisions that were utterly and totally wrong and inhuman and pretty much unforgivable. And I strongly believe that these stories still need to be told and should be told for years to come.
The only thing that sometimes bugs me is the fact that even today some writers and/or directors decide to show 'the bad German' in a very cut and dried manner.

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 4:50 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Well, compared to English, German is a far more difficult language to learn. I also took several years of French in school and believe me, again this was far more difficult than English.

Intereresting. We've always been told that English is the most difficult language. But there are different kinds of "difficult"-- as I mentioned earlier, we don't have to worry about that pesky formal vs. informal thing, or the noun genders thing, for starters. English is difficult because we have loads of homonyms, homophones, and homographs, as we well as loads of idiomatic expressions. My husband (he also loves words) and I often look at each other and marvel, "How does anyone ever learn English?"

Personally, I found all language difficult to study when I was in school. I spent years studying French and German, and I swear, I've forgotten more than I ever learned. Unless you use it, all that foreign language studying just doesn't stick.

I general I would say that in Germany they really take great care when it comes to dubbing. You don't have movies that are 'better' dubbed than others, Hollywood blockbuster or little independent flim, the dubbing is equally good.
But the 'problem' is that an actor does not only consist of his body language and his facial expressions, it's also the voice. So many emotions are conveyed through the voice, and a dubbing actor will never be able to get this right. You just can't copy the voice of someone else, even if the timbre, the sound happens to be quite similar. Furthermore, especially actors who aren't all that famous yet tend to have different German 'voices' - for example, at the moment there still are two different actors who do the dubbing for Benedict. Khan's German voice was not the same as Sherlock's, for example. And this is just unbelievably irritating. And since we all know what Benedict's own voice sounds like... well, that makes it even worse.

Yes, the dubbers aren't actors necessarily. And my guess is that they're given very little time to actually prepare-- I imagine most of their work is done almost cold.

ancientsgate · November 12, 2014 4:54 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
....stories from WW II, when I watch them I am very much aware that these things happened because people in my home country did terrible things and made decisions that were utterly and totally wrong and inhuman and pretty much unforgivable. And I strongly believe that these stories still need to be told and should be told for years to come.

Thank you for your answer. I was afraid my question was offensive. Just something I'm curious about. I live in a country that's held up in the international court of opinion and found wanting on a day by day basis, so I know how hurtful it can seem when that happens.

The only thing that sometimes bugs me is the fact that even today some writers and/or directors decide to show 'the bad German' in a very cut and dried manner.

Yes, that's indulging in a stereotype. All nationalities have them, of course. The US is so large, we even have regional stereotypes.

SolarSystem · November 12, 2014 5:12 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Intereresting. We've always been told that English is the most difficult language. But there are different kinds of "difficult"-- as I mentioned earlier, we don't have to worry about that pesky formal vs. informal thing, or the noun genders thing, for starters. English is difficult because we have loads of homonyms, homophones, and homographs, as we well as loads of idiomatic expressions. My husband (he also loves words) and I often look at each other and marvel, "How does anyone ever learn English?"

I suppose almost everybody thinks that his/her mother tongue is the most difficult to learn... I always thought that German must definitely be one of the most difficult languages to learn, because of the things you've already mentioned yourself and lots of other rules and exceptions to those rules.

Yes, the dubbers aren't actors necessarily. And my guess is that they're given very little time to actually prepare-- I imagine most of their work is done almost cold.

Most of them are in fact actors who for example work in the theatre and in addition do dubbing and other audio work. And many, many dubbers do little else than dubbing. Don't forget that all the tv series from the US are dubbed, as well. That makes for a lot of work, especially because you have the same actor dubbing for example someone on "Grey's Anatomy" and "The Big Bang Theory" and maybe one of the CSI series...

Thank you for your answer. I was afraid my question was offensive. Just something I'm curious about. I live in a country that's held up in the international court of opinion and found wanting on a day by day basis, so I know how hurtful it can seem when that happens.

Don't worry, it wasn't an offensive question at all. And I'm not watching these films, constantly thinking 'Oh god, I'm German, too. I'm responsible, I feel so guilty...' or something like that. Like I said, I am aware that these things happened because of 'my people', and I think that it's important to always remember what human beings are capable of - but that goes for all human beings. War hasn't just stopped after WW II, as we all know...

Last edited by SolarSystem (November 12, 2014 5:13 pm)

besleybean · November 12, 2014 5:33 pm

Well said.

SusiGo · November 12, 2014 6:37 pm

Thanks for your thoughts, ancientsgate and Solar.

I would like to add something - I think there various kinds of difficulty in individual languages. What I find hard in English for example is the enormous vocabulary, many words that are similar in meaning but not identical and you have to choose which one to use. I also wonder again and again about the pronunciation, especially where names are concerned.
In French you have to learn all the different verb forms and there are a lot of words or word groups that sound identical but are spelt completely different and have a different meaning.
And I think German grammar has a lot of snags and of course there are the "Umlaute" and the letter "ß" which I think is used in no other language.

However, I have been to Poland twice and many people told me that Polish holds a record for being notoriously difficult to learn. Maybe our Polish members can comment on that as well.

besleybean · November 12, 2014 6:42 pm

I did one semester in Polish, it was a little difficult.
Gaelic and Welsh are both difficult too!
But English just makes no sense at all. Tee Hee.

Neferu · November 12, 2014 6:50 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I would like to add something - I think there various kinds of difficulty in individual languages. What I find hard in English for example is the enormous vocabulary, many words that are similar in meaning but not identical and you have to choose which one to use. I also wonder again and again about the pronunciation, especially where names are concerned.

Oh yes, I can agree from the deepest bottom of my heart.
If I search for a word in my dictionary, there are mostly for 1 german word at least 4 (often 8 or more) suggestions in english and so I can always just guess which one will be the correct in my sentense.It is like playing "Lotto".

besleybean · November 12, 2014 6:56 pm

I love the variety of English vocabulary...
But the spelling and pronunciation leave something to be desired.

MartaSt · November 12, 2014 7:28 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts, ancientsgate and Solar.

I would like to add something - I think there various kinds of difficulty in individual languages. What I find hard in English for example is the enormous vocabulary, many words that are similar in meaning but not identical and you have to choose which one to use. I also wonder again and again about the pronunciation, especially where names are concerned.
In French you have to learn all the different verb forms and there are a lot of words or word groups that sound identical but are spelt completely different and have a different meaning.
And I think German grammar has a lot of snags and of course there are the "Umlaute" and the letter "ß" which I think is used in no other language.

However, I have been to Poland twice and many people told me that Polish holds a record for being notoriously difficult to learn. Maybe our Polish members can comment on that as well.

Polish is a little bit difficult I admit. Many foreigners have problems with our pronunciation especially if word contain things like "sz", "cz", "ź" (for example in words "Szczebrzeszyn" or "chrząszcz"). Our grammar is also not very friendly because basically there are no rules for words declension, every word has its own declination and foreigners have to learn it by heart.

I've always considered German language as a little bit difficult. Grammar is fine but in German language there are many very long words which are hard to remember