BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

Harriet · June 7, 2014 5:10 pm

Finally you acknowledged that the term had several meanings in those days. And many readers would know that.

besleybean · June 7, 2014 5:12 pm

I acknowleged that way back.

Harriet · June 7, 2014 5:28 pm

besleybean wrote:
EDIT: so Harriet, one can produce any theory they like out of the ether and not have to provide evidence, becasue of course evidence would be hidden so as not to shame the family....most convenient.
Would you be happy to tell ACD's family your theory?
Or even Mark and Steven?
I would never want to misrepresent the work and views of a top writer who I love.

What is so wrong about rediscovering a heritage that was silenced and muted by force?
It's not about convenience. It's a sad and cruel thing that people in those days had so little possibilities to speak out.
And to me, silencing them until our days means repeating the injustice that was done to them.

besleybean · June 7, 2014 5:45 pm

But there is no evidence he was being silenced.

Harriet · June 7, 2014 5:55 pm

So you don't believe it's silencing when a person grows up in a society where free expression of thoughts and needs will cause harshest sanctions?

besleybean · June 7, 2014 6:00 pm

I do believe that.
But there is no evidence this was the situation for ACD.
Nothing in his notes suggestd he wanted to write a gay couple but felt he couldn't.

Last edited by besleybean (June 7, 2014 6:01 pm)

SusiGo · October 4, 2014 4:29 pm

Just a thought that came to me - does John ever learn that Sherlock and Janine had no sexual relationship? He knows that Sherlock used her to get to Magnussen but he does not know that nothing happened between them. So can we assume that John believes Sherlock had a sexual relationship with a least one woman? And that there was at least a grain of truth in the stuff she told the media?

besleybean · October 4, 2014 4:38 pm

Indeed.
Because he doesn't correct Mary when she says: you should talk

Liberty · October 4, 2014 5:31 pm

I'm not sure. He seems incredulous, doesn't seem to quite believe the relationship. And then Sherlock confirms it's for a case. I suppose it depends how far John would think Sherlock would go for the case? (As it turns out, we know that he didn't need to go very far, but John can't know that for sure). When Mary says "you should talk", it's about befriending Janine to get to Magnusson, so I don't think it gives away anything about sex ... and Janine didn't talk to Mary about Sherlock and their sex life before the shooting. (Is it odd that she doesn't? Mary is her best friend - the first thing she would do if Sherlock asked her out would be to phone her up and say "Guess what?").

Last edited by Liberty (October 4, 2014 5:39 pm)

SusiGo · October 4, 2014 5:37 pm

We think Mary is her best friend but actually we have no idea about the two of them. It is one of the many blind spots in series 3 and especially the wedding. Who are all those guests? How did Mary and Janine meet and when? Who befriended whom for which end? Why did Janine did not tell Mary about the relationship? Or did she and Mary did not tell John? So many questions.

Btw, I always wonder about Janine`s "I'll give your love to John and Mary" at the hospital. John probably has been there most of the time, far more than Janine. But she makes it sound as if he was just a casual acquaintance. Of course it also serves as a trigger for Sherlock's deductions about Mary but the wording is strange.

besleybean · October 4, 2014 5:49 pm

I wonder if you're onto something...unless it just mirrors her 'give my love to Mary'...which I think she said to John at 221B!

Liberty · October 4, 2014 5:51 pm

Yes, there's so much I want to know! The bridesmaid is usually the sister or best friend, so I'd assume Janine was (superficially) Mary's best friend. However, we know Mary's using Janine to get to Magnusson - making her a bridesmaid might be a bribe, if it wasn't for the fact that being a bridesmaid at a wedding where you hardly know anyone is hardly fun, and a big commitment.   Maybe Janine wanted to meet Sherlock ... or maybe Magnusson pushed her in that direction.

I didn't think of Janine and Mary not telling John. That's also a possibility. (Although it does mean that Janine is lying when she says that she hasn't told Mary. I took that at face value, but she could be covering for Mary who could have told her not to tell John!).    If Janine had told Mary, then Mary would know for sure that Sherlock was after Magnusson.

And yes, giving love to John and Mary is strange. She knows Sherlock is much closer to John than she is.

About the original question (about whether Sherlock had sexual experience), I was just talking about this with somebody recently and wondered about Sherlock thanking Irene for giving him the final proof that love was a dangerous disadvantage. The "final" proof suggests that he could have had some proof from a previous relationship.    Perhaps he was the one at at disadvantage that time. I don't know - I'm happy to take it at face value that he's a virgin, but I think it's very open to interpretation.   I think that when we see him at the beginning of the series he has long had his emotions under control (surface control, anyway!), but that doesn't rule out an earlier time when he didn't, or was still learning to. Of course, he could be referring to Redbeard, but I don't know - I don't think he thinks Irene has Redbeard feelings for him. He could have fallen for somebody without losing his virginity too.

SusiGo · October 4, 2014 5:52 pm

Liberty: I have never been convinced that Sherlock is a virgin. It could be a snide remark by Mycroft alluding to his inexperience or some catastrophic relationship in the past but it is no definite proof that he never had sex.
The other thing of course is Irene's "the iceman and the virgin". But as there is an exception to Mycroft's iciness, i.e. his brother, there may be an exception to Sherlock's virginity as well.

Last edited by SusiGo (October 4, 2014 5:58 pm)

besleybean · October 4, 2014 5:55 pm

Hmm...
I'm also thimking of Irene saying: Jim sends his love

Liberty · October 4, 2014 7:11 pm

Which maybe means that "Jim is on to you"? So does Janine giving Sherlock's love to Mary mean that Sherlock is on to Mary? (Well, he is, but does Janine guess? Is she hinting?). I still feel that maybe Janine and Sherlock could have collaborated, but he didn't give her the chance. It feels like Janine's acting a little in the scene with John at 221B - do you think?

I like the point about the exception to the iciness! Irene's "virgin" comment came from Moriarty, who presumably got it from Mycroft, who may well have been picking and choosing which pieces of information he fed him. (Edit: Actually, I'm not sure about this at all, because I get confused with the timing in S2 - did HoB happen during or after SIB? I don't suppose Mycroft was feeding Moriarty info until Irene's "virgin" comment, so forget that).

Last edited by Liberty (October 5, 2014 7:53 am)

lil · October 4, 2014 7:14 pm

I think Sherlock sort of told John he hadn't at the lift..John was but she loves you blah...and Sherlock said something like only so far you can go...which seemed to be..nudity and kisses.
Doubt Sherlock would of never been curious or realised sex was a vital part of the work...so he prob experimented..gained knowledge...and then deleted it....so kind of a born again virgin?
He certaintly knows how to use his sexual charisma.

@Janine...think Mary got to know her through Magnusson contact...she obv. had contact with both Janine and Magnusson some time before the wedding. TEH timeframe.
Both women under Magnussons control....who had a room behind his office with a bed and a filming style lamp and those mirrors...and was a vile blackmailer.....hmmmm

Prob Janine went along with Sherlock hoping he was after her boss....and would stop him flicking her face.

The love to John@Mary is a little odd...maybe it was just a joint be seeing you around thing.......but then theres also all her pearl jewellery in every scene...and Johns pearl emails in the unsolved case.....

La Jolie · October 4, 2014 7:25 pm

Lil, I think when Sherlock says to John in the lift "There's only so far you can go", he refers only to marrying her (which would lead to all kinds of legal complications, not to mention the emotional ones), not just to what they do or don't do as girlfriend and boyfriend in bed.

I think I'm pretty much with Susi on the original question.

Sherlock is supposed to be someone who has feelings but tries to suppress them, not someone who doesn't have feelings at all. So it's perfectly possible for him to have been in love at some point in the romantic sense. It's very likely that it led to a big disappointment, because if anything it must have confirmed him in his endeavours to "free" himself from all emotions of that sort. Or maybe it wasn't just one big disappointment but several small ones.

As for whether any previous romantic attachments of his resulted in sexual activities, I can never (whenever I think about it, anyway - I DO do other things in my life, too) settle on one of two possible (and entirely contrary) scenarios.

The first is that this is really simply not his area because having sex with someone would mean letting your guards down far too much for him to feel comfortable with it, so he's avoided it so far and both Moriarty's and Mycroft's words in ASIB must be taken literally.

The other is that Sherlock, as far as we've seen, has never been afraid of throwing himself mind, body and soul into anything that he found was worth the sacrifice. He firmly believes that his ends justify almost any means, and regularly shocks us by how far he'll go to achieve them. It's usually about how he treats other people (even his friends, like when he tricked John in the tube scene in TEH into believing they were going to die), but he doesn't exclude himself, which is rather decent in itself, I think. He's even willing to take insane risks to his own health and life for a case, so I can easily, easily see him having sex with someone for some higher purpose, too.

Am I alone in the world to think that it would have actually been *more* In Character for him if he *had* had sex with Janine, just to make her believe more firmly in their "relatioship"?

Last edited by La Jolie (October 4, 2014 7:32 pm)

Liberty · October 4, 2014 8:17 pm

Oh, good question. I think he possibly could and would (have sex if it served a higher purpose), but doesn't because of sentiment. He really doesn't want to be that mean to Janine (his plan is working without the sex, so sex, which he seems to believe makes people vulnerable - and actually, I'd probably agree with him - is an unnecessary level of cruelty). The funny thing is that Janine (who I think is more knowing than she lets on), would have seen sex as a bonus of the arrangement, not a further humiliation. Which does leave another possible explanation - that Sherlock holds back because he doesn't want to be vulnerable. He's afraid it will open the floodgates and be a dangerous disadvantage for him. (Not set on that idea, just considering it. But liking it ).

Lil, yes, I think Janine would happily have colluded with Sherlock to depose Magnusson. I think that's (partly) what she means by "we could have been friends". And then Magnusson says that he was abusing her at the end, so she had the motivation - she should have been a client, or an accomplice, not a mark. Instead, both Magnusson and Sherlock use her to arrange that meeting in the office.

SusiGo · October 4, 2014 8:22 pm

I do not see him having sex for a higher purpose, much less with a woman. IMO it would be very OOC.

Last edited by SusiGo (October 4, 2014 8:42 pm)

Liberty · October 4, 2014 8:33 pm

... or he's suppressing it . Something he's quite practiced at. I know what you mean about attraction, but I don't think it's necessary to "perform". Fantasy combined with sensation would do the trick.   Sherlock is also a good actor and manipulator. (Edit - this was in response to your comment about Sherlock not being attracted to Janine and so not able to perform sexually - I can't see the post now! But hopefully this makes sense).

(He does do some dodgy things, for cases. Including drugging and terrifying John, which is a little bit borderline for me ... but shows his rather pragmatic attitude.   I think there's something holding him back in Janine's case - I think he doesn't want to hurt her more than he has to ... or he doesn't want to make himself vulnerable).

Thinking of it, the ambiguity about his sexuality and his asexual/virgin persona (which he seems happy to have perpetuated), do give him an opening to use sex with men or women, or to appear "safe" when necessary too.   I wonder if that's deliberate?

Last edited by Liberty (October 5, 2014 9:53 pm)