BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Keeping topics 'on topic'

kazza474 · January 15, 2013 10:54 am

We have a growing forum here, and with it comes many and varied topics.
With it also comes many and varied members, in age and in interests.
Recently Davina and I were discussing he flow of the forum and how things are going.
I shall continue this post using my thoughts, however as I said, Davina and I have had these discussions so I know her feelings, but will post as if these words are coming from both of us, she can ably express herself in her own words.

Topics are starting to go way 'off topic'. Very often, we find they either become losded with pictures or chat of things you wouldn't expect if you read the title & came in to read through. Most noticeable has been the topic of sex or sexual orientation.
Now whilst this subject may be of vast interest to some, it doesn't interest everyone andone particular thread of late had a post that was irrelevant to the subject matter and started another 'is he gay' discussion.
The comments were eventually deleted and members were asked to make their own topic for that (like all we need is another one however!) .
Then the protests about deletions and editing started, again people have been reminded to keep things on topic. It was quite a good thread until then.

Very soon we shall clean that topic up and remove all off topic comments. If you wish to discuss deletions etc, please do so here.

I will however give you a brief rundown on my feelings in this matter.

1. Members are of all ages, including very young ones. With this in mind, if there's a topic about John's Sweaters one should be able to expect it to be about " john sweaters" which would be a very safe place for anyone to discuss matters without sexual references etc that younger members should NOT be exposed to.

2. The forum has moderators appointed; part of their job is to ensure the content is not going to upset anyone as far as possible. So someone going into a "John's Sweaters" thread will not find the discussion to be about whether or not Sherlock and John have slept together. Those posts will be removed.

3. This is NOT censorship/failing to allow freedom of speech etc. Those terms relate to more oppressive societies where the individual has NO voice; you people have plenty of areas to post your every thought on matters. The key is to post in the right places. A one off comment is NOT infringing on this policy; a full blown conversation IS and henceforth , the discussion will be closed down with a simple request of 'please make a separate thread for this'.
If you choose not to do so, we can and we will simply delete the conversation. We ask politely, if you cannot abide we're not going to drag it out.

So if you value your posted words, keep them in check in the appropriate areas.
If this were a real life 'room' you wouldn't stand in front of people who did not want to hear your 'take' on homosexuality and continue to discuss it would you? You would politely move to another section and carry on your conversation. That is all we ask.
It is a simple enough request.

Davina · January 15, 2013 1:42 pm

To which I will only add: that the protection of minors who frequent this forum is, and must remain, a trump card.; if you start a thread that has a content inappropriate for minors then please, please note it as such in the title, in the same way as fan-fics do; if you are on an existing thread which is not marked in this way then please be circumspect on what you post.

Thank you for your co-operation in this matter.

equiraptor · January 15, 2013 1:47 pm

Have yall considered a sub-forum for non-child-safe content?

kazza474 · January 15, 2013 1:55 pm

Whilst that's an option, the premise of the whole site is discussion on Sherlock and related matters.
I personally don't see the need for an 'adults only' area as they tend to become even a bigger problem. Besides which there is nothing to stop any member from going into any thread, so it is impossible to regulate that sort of thing.
Surely people can discuss things in a manner that you would if you were all in a large room and use your own common sense & discretion at what is going 'too far' in mixed company?
As a society, we do that automatically, why does a screen and keyboard suddenly make people lose their sense of decency?

ancientsgate · January 15, 2013 2:03 pm

I would not have objected to the wholesale deletion of several posts in the thread in question yesterday evening, if any explanation had been given. After all, we out here in the ranks are not privy to WHAT was deleted, only that several posts in a row were marked **off topic, deleted** ( or similar words), with no explanation about why. The moderator's follow-up post, stating her objections to the sexualized comments on that thread, came off (to me) as a very personal mini-rant that I took as being just that-- her personal thoughts on the subject, used to stand between us and a free discussion. As always when dealing with that moderator, I was assumed to be taking whatever I was objecting to as a personal attack, but nothing could have been further from the truth. My concern was only about one person wielding absolute power over what I mistakenly presumed to be a free discussion place.

IMO, if y'all are so worried about offending the virgin eyes of the children here, you ought to think hard about making it an over-18 forum. Problem solved.

From what I've seen, all the discussion threads go off topic occasionally. And you know what? I've never seen them fail to become on-topic again, after a few posts. We stray to the right or the left here and there, but usually within 10-20 posts or less, we're right back on topic again. Isn't that the nature of human conversation? I believe it is, even though our thoughts are written rather than spoken. A gentle "let's get back to the subject, shall we?" from a moderator would have sufficed-- no need IMO to hack away at people's posts and kick them out wholesale.

ancientsgate · January 15, 2013 2:08 pm

kazza474 wrote:
....As a society, we do that automatically, why does a screen and keyboard suddenly make people lose their sense of decency?

What was said on that thread yesterday, all the posts you deleted, were indecent? Really? Huh. I have found this forum to be a pretty nice place to hang out, all in all. Everyone here loves Sherlock (and John), they're enthusiastic about them and the show almost to a fault, and I've met many people on the forum who are funny and warm and accepting of me and everyone else. I have not stumbled into anything indecent. Maybe I need to get out more.

SusiGo · January 15, 2013 2:25 pm

I think the opinions on what is decent and indecent may differ.

"Mrs. Hudson: Look at you, all happy. It's not decent.
Sherlock: Who cares about decent. The game, Mrs. Hudson, is on!"

But seriously: I'm willing to give a warning when mentioning or recommending something that might be interpreted as having adult content or to label a new topic as such.
But I have always appreciated the relaxed and friendly atmosphere in this forum, the banter and, yes, the sometimes naughty jokes. And I'd be very sorry if this shouldn't be possible any longer in a group of (mostly) grown-up people.
As you said, Kazza, this forum is about BBC Sherlock and related matters - which are widely spread ranging from ACD canon to the whole Johnlock thing, fangirling, etc.. This doesn't only apply to our forum but to the Net as a whole (e.g. tumblr). And IMHO all this should find a place in here.

QuiteExtraordinary · January 15, 2013 5:56 pm

So I would say we need a definition of what counts as adult content and a kind of warning tag to label the threads with if necessary.
And someone to shout "back to topic" when a thread is getting out of hand.

Mattlocked · January 15, 2013 6:18 pm

I understand the problem, but what I could read here so far, is quite subtle and not really.....mmm... shocking.
Because what I find "free" in the world wide web when I search for Sherlock-related things or pics does sometimes shock me. And I consider myself being an adult.
Maybe I've been in the wrong threads here so far, I don't know. It is not easy to protect "our youngest" and I do also think that most of our members don't need protection. The protection should begin somewhere else. Everywhere everything is free available these days and I understand that we don't want to see rude, pornographic things in here. But so far I didn't.

Regarding fanfic (which I read once or twice) there should be a warning, I agree. Which doesn't protect the kids of being curious and take a look anyway. Or maybe just BECAUSE of the warning!? Just a thought.

To delete any posts is no good idea in my opinion. Who wants to decide where the protection has to start?

Open Google and put in "Sherlock John". Choose "pics" and take a quick look. Could be dangerous.
Compared to what I find there, our forum is Kindergarten and absolutely harmless.
(Feel free to delete this last passage as it is not meant as "manual")

Concerning the simple going-off-topic thing my feeling was so far that there always is someone who leads back to the actual topic when posts run out of track. I don't know if anything more is needed here. Deleting any posts or closing a thread will just annoy the members. That would be sad.
And I know what I'm talking about. In another forum they started doing exactly that. Deleted posts and closed "difficult" threads.
The result was that a lot of very nice members left the forum because they got angry or just got unsure what they are allowed to write.
The general vibe/mood in that forum is still sad and everyone is insecure. Still many are considering to leave.

Last edited by Mattlocked (January 15, 2013 6:57 pm)

equiraptor · January 15, 2013 7:05 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
Concerning the simple going-off-topic thing my feeling was so far that there always is someone who leads back to the actual topic when posts run out of track. I don't know if anything more is needed here. Deleting any posts or closing a thread will just annoy the members. That would be sad.
And I know what I'm talking about. In another forum they started doing exactly that. Deleted posts and closed "difficult" threads.
The result was that a lot of very nice members left the forum because they got angry or just got unsure what they are allowed to write.
The general vibe/mood in that forum is still sad and everyone is insecure. Still many are considering to leave.

On a different forum I'm on, posts that venture off topic or into not family friendly areas are deleted, and the moderator who deletes them comments in the thread reminding people to stay on topic / family friendly as needed, mentioning they did some clean-up. If this needs to be done multiple times, the thread will be locked, with a similar explanation. Generally, the second clean-up includes a "don't make me close this," and either the third or fourth need for clean-up will result in the thread being locked. PMs are also sent to individual members as needed to explain things. This keeps everyone informed and helps to encourage understanding and working with the moderators. Of course, some people do still find it stifling and leave. Others would find not doing it offensive or find the noise:signal ratio poor - you're going to lose some of the audience with whatever choice is made.

Whatever decision the moderators make, IMO, communication is key. Communicating the basics of what's going on in non-accusatory language allows things to progress.

Mattlocked · January 15, 2013 7:14 pm

Equiraptor, I get your point.
But still I'm not sure if this kind of intervention is really needed in here. IMO everytime the members somehow managed to push back to topic. Most of the time it even works automatically when someone quotes an older post to comment on - and immediately the thread is back on track.
Plus: I didn't notice so far that anyone was really annoyed when members started to "go nuts" and lost the track for a while. Let me know if I'm wrong / missed something.

tobeornot221b · January 15, 2013 7:20 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
But still I'm not sure if this kind of intervention is really needed in here. IMO everytime the members somehow managed to push back to topic. Most of the time it even works automatically when someone quotes an older post to comment on - and immediately the thread is back on track.
.

My thoughts exactly, Mattlocked. That's life. Not always straight ahead. And not to be taken too seriously.

equiraptor · January 15, 2013 8:21 pm

Mattlocked wrote:
But still I'm not sure if this kind of intervention is really needed in here.

I don't know if it's needed or not. I haven't happened upon the off-topic or non-family-friendly content (particularly before being cleaned up) so can't comment on these specific situations. I'm just commenting in general terms.

Last edited by equiraptor (January 15, 2013 8:21 pm)

Ivy · January 15, 2013 9:54 pm

I'm in the "let's make the whole forum 18+" group! The under 18 years old are always on tumblr anyway,

KeepersPrice · January 15, 2013 10:39 pm

Mattlocked wrote: The result was that a lot of very nice members left the forum because they got angry or just got unsure what they are allowed to write.
The general vibe/mood in that forum is still sad and everyone is insecure. Still many are considering to leave.

I feel sad today because I really like this forum and feel like I've found a home here. I've made friends and have enjoyed the discussions, the pictures, the banter, etc. For the first time one of my posts was deleted from a thread because it was in response to another post that, itself, was in response to a post that was already going off topic. My mood today is as Mattlock has said above. I've posted a couple of things today, but I must say my heart wasn't in it. May just start lurking now instead of posting...sorry...

ancientsgate · January 15, 2013 10:39 pm

Ivy wrote:
I'm in the "let's make the whole forum 18+" group! The under 18 years old are always on tumblr anyway,

And seeing/reading things that are quite adult, to say the least.

As someone posted earlier, all one has to do is go to google images and type in Sherlock John, and they'll get an eyeful. None of that has found its way here. As I said, I know I don't get out much (ie, I don't read every word posted here), but I really haven't spotted any truly adult content on this forum. Certainly nothing that any kid old enough to get into a PG-13 movie couldn't see/hear, much less what they're exposed to in their own schools.

I earnestly hope this forum doesn't become one of those control freak censor police places. If so, we will lose people. Some enjoy being controlled and censored, others find it off-putting in the extreme. It's difficult to accept being slapped on the the hand with a ruler, as though we were back in grammar school. But we all have to bow to those in control here. None of the rank and file own this place, and if we're told we're out of line, or someone in charge decides to throw one of us out bodily, then we'll just have to accept it. Too bad. Life's real short, and I don't know about everyone else here, but I joined and have stayed and posted for the fun, not to add difficulties to my already difficult life.

Just my take on all of it.

kazza474 · January 16, 2013 7:25 am

Ok well I am glad those who wished to say something had their chance to do so.
However I feel you are missing the simple points I posted. I shall summarise them once again.

1. We will be keeping the forum user friendly for all ages.

2. Moderators have an obligation to the Admin AND Boardhost to keep a certain level of acceptability. It is our decision, not one for debate.

3. This came about from what we felt was one too many threads going way off topic and going back to a subject that seems to be resonating in many threads. We have asked and will continue to ask that we try to stick to the topic as the 'gay theme' and other sexual references are encroaching to a point of flooding the forum with these themes.

Yes in life there are many 'disagreeable' things/moments.
That doesn't mean they need to be accepted or tolerated. They won't be here.
There are no control freaks, all matters are discussed with at least 2 staff members before action is taken.

Please carry on using the forum freely, and as in real life always remember while you have rights, so do those around you.

Thank you.

Davina · January 16, 2013 7:53 am

This forum is not an 18+ forum.

Ivy · January 16, 2013 12:52 pm

Not at all, but when it would be easier that way.

Sherlock Holmes · January 17, 2013 12:39 am

I don't think it should be an 18+ forum, but I do think we should be able to discuss 18+ issues if we want to...albeit with a warning in the topic header.

So yes, if you're planning to talk about sex etc, put it in your topic header as a warning, at least then we've covered our backs, if someone under 18 chooses to look at it and take part, that's their choice.

I've been moving house so wasn't around yesterday when whatever it is happened happened. I don't particularly agree with deleting peoples posts without a warning first so I'm not sure why that happened......I think if a topic is going "off topic" then someone needs to jump in and say "can we try and keep this on topic guys" or "maybe you guys could start a new topic on this issue" etc...Don't really understand why we would need to delete posts unless they were saying something hugely offensive.?

I can understand that maybe in a topic that wasn't supposed to be 18+, started going off in that direction because of slightly off-topic remarks, then perhaps the people involved could be asked to moderate their own posts to make them slightly safer for a younger audience on that particular topic, or start their own topic which was clearly marked for older readers...I think it should involve a private PM to the members concerned, rather than blanket deleting of messages.