BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Nerd Fight: Sherlock vs Elementary

kazza474 · December 29, 2012 1:18 am

Swanpride wrote:
Concering the "boy/girl" thing they already lost me when Sherlock Quoted to Joan some sort of love confession the moment he saw her, just to make the "he just repeated what he heard on the TV" ?joke?. I'm actually not sure what the scene was suppose to tell me, but if they really want to create a "gender doesn't matter" situation, than the gender shouldn't matter, and not be pointed out at the very first opportunity.

Gender is a simple fact; one is male and one is female. It's on the screen in front of you.
The scene very quickly established that Holmes is an individual who cannot be put into a 'usual' basket. On hearing his words and seeing his gestures Watson AND you (the audience) thought 'omg he's put on all the charm and is going to whisk Watson away on a cloud of love & lust'. The actual eventuality mocked the stereotypical thinking of both Watson and the audience in one foul swoop!
It was saying " throw out your usual thinking on this guy, nothing he does is 'the norm' ".
The writers gotcha.

Mountain Momma · December 29, 2012 1:31 am

ancientsgate wrote:
kazza474 wrote:
I think what I find almost 'anti - canon' about Elementary is that it is TOO modernised.
It has taken the two main characters, who were basically 'good', one even being 'top of the class' and changed them into flawed characters. So now the 'interest' is more in the characters than the detection, the problem solving, etc. Yes certainly the canon focused on Holmes' brilliance, but it didn't depend on delving into his psyche.
This is a modern trend that sometimes goes too far. Today it seems the 'flawed' individuals are propelled up as the heroes of the world and those who are good at everything, have intelligence & common sense, etc are treated as 'commonplace' & no longer celebrated as they once were....
Bad writing. Cheap, throw-away writing, with only ratings in mind and no love for the characters at all.

Amen.

kazza474 · December 29, 2012 1:34 am

ancientsgate wrote:
And you've watched it exactly once? Maybe you need to watch a few more episodes.

Ahh, fatal error; assuming I have not done my research. Yes there WAS a time where I had only watched the pilot.
Times change.

.... it would be highly typical for American producers to "go there"-- i

Actually, there are many American dramas in this category where in fact that does NOT happen; hardly 'typical' really even for American productions.

..
I thought this was a discussion forum. AFAIK, none of us are personally acquainted with the actors or showrunners or writers of Elementary, so I don't think we're hurting anyone's feelings. And even if we were, this kind of fan discussion is to be expected when someone makes a production for run of the mill public consumption. I will continue to state my viewpoints until I'm told not to, because I think this is the function of this forum.

For crying out loud; enough is enough!
My statement was AGAIN my opinion! It is what was being said in my head.

It's NOT a damned directive; it is NOT an order!
You people paint me as some kind of friggen nazi officer on this forum. I make a statement and you all scream 'she's picking on me'.

Learn to read forums as they should be; they are pages on the internet where people 'voice' their thoughts. Not every thought will be sickly sweet as not every member will be sickly sweet.

The fact that you 'hear' me telling you what you can or cannot post is more a reflection of you than it is me. I'm not the one placing authority in my posts.

ancientsgate · December 29, 2012 4:26 am

kazza474 wrote:
For crying out loud; enough is enough! My statement was AGAIN my opinion! It is what was being said in my head.
It's NOT a damned directive; it is NOT an order! You people paint me as some kind of friggen nazi officer on this forum. I make a statement and you all scream 'she's picking on me'. Learn to read forums as they should be; they are pages on the internet where people 'voice' their thoughts. Not every thought will be sickly sweet as not every member will be sickly sweet. The fact that you 'hear' me telling you what you can or cannot post is more a reflection of you than it is me. I'm not the one placing authority in my posts.

Oh. I thought this was a discussion forum. So am I to assume that when you state your opinions, no one is supposed to respond? Or only respond if they agree with you? Or only respond if they pose their comments in ways that are acceptable to you?

You said that Elementary has nothing to do with Sherlock, so we needed to stop dealing in stereotypes and get some balance in our comments [and yes, I'm paraphrasing]. But what if I don't want to balance my comments according to your definition of balance? My opinions are my own, as are yours your own, and even though what either of us posts might seem unbalanced to others, that doesn't mean it's so. My statements are my opinions-- I just write down what was being said in my head. Sound familiar?

kazza474 · December 29, 2012 4:39 am

Look obviously we don't speak the same language. Because I am reading your posts with opinions that chop & change with the wind.
Best we not address each other any more.
Thank You.

Davina · December 29, 2012 8:53 am

And breathe...

The point is that Elementary and Sherlock are not in direct competition with each other. The audience profiles are different for a start. They can both exist in perfect isolation from each other. Of course we compare them, that is bound to happen but they are not really the same animal. I have tried to forget 'Sherlock' when I watch 'Elementary', hard to do but I do try. As a stand alone show Elementary is not dreadful nor is it brilliant. JLM's performance throughout is good and has emotional depth. The number of episodes and the short air time for each is, and will remain, a problem.

We can each voice our opinions but bear in mind that not all opinions will be the same as we are dealing with a subjective matter.

ancientsgate · December 29, 2012 11:47 am

Well, there's enough room in the entertainment world for both shows, of course. Sue Vertue was originally concerned that the CBS show would borrow heavily from the BBC 'verse she and the other Sherlock showrunners have so carefully crafted. But now months have passed, and I suppose the BBC powers that be have watched this new incarnation and are satisfied that it's enough different not to be a threat to their work.

I think it would have been way more clever of CBS to make Sherlock either an American or a woman or both. In other words, just go all the way changing it all up and inventing a unique 'verse while you're at it. This way, keeping Sherlock male and Brit, while making Joan female and flawed and acting pretty confused about what in heck she's doing in Sherlock's life (besides the obvious, making a living) can seem jarring at times. Sort of round holes and square pegs and all that.

The whole question may end up being a tempest in a teapot, since the show is apt to end up being cancelled, as so many American episodic dramas are sooner rather than later. I don't know how the ratings are running for Elementary.

ancientsgate · December 29, 2012 11:52 am

Davina wrote:
And breathe...We can each voice our opinions but bear in mind that not all opinions will be the same as we are dealing with a subjective matter.

Of course. Breathing is sometimes optional, however. *smile* But I will continue to pipe up at any time I feel I'm being bullied or abused (neither of which have anything to do with discussion or opinions), because that's my nature. Now, once again, back to your originally scheduled programming.

kazza474 · December 30, 2012 2:53 am

Elementary seems to have been accepted in the US, just under 11 million viewers for the most recent episode. Not too shabby.

ancientsgate · December 30, 2012 3:34 am

The Nielsen website only listed their top 10 ranked shows for the current week, and that was no help, so I searched around and found this top-25 Nielsen list at this business site:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-12-27/u-dot-s-dot-broadcast-television-ratings-for-the-week-ended-dec-dot-23
This shows Elementary at #23, with [I think, if I did the math right] 5 million viewers among those who either watched the show live or on the same day using their DVR. This week's ep was a repeat, and I imagine that always affects a show's ratings.

I couldn't find any evidence of the recent ep showing up on the all-important top-25 list for the 18-49 age group demographic.

I've briefly searched for total half-season ratings, and so far have found nothing.

whistling in the dark · December 30, 2012 5:10 am

As of mid-season hiatus, Elementary is the highest rated new series of the year. And CBS obviously has some faith in the show since they gave it the coveted post-Superbowl slot and ordered an additional two episodes after giving it a full season order.

There was a drop in ratings after the first two episodes, but that happens with most new shows. Since episode three, the ratings have been consistent at just over 10 million. They've been number one in total viewers in their 10 p.m. time slot since the premiere and have been number one in key demos for all but the last two weeks.

Pilot- 13.29 million viewers
While You Were Sleeping - 11.22 million viewers
Child Predator - 10.84 million viewers
Rat Race - 10.16 million viewers
Lesser Evils - 10.5 million viewers
Flight Risk - 10.9 million viewers
One Way to Get Off - 10.72 million viewers
The Long Fuse - 10.36 million viewers
You Do it to Yourself - 10.94 million viewers
The Leviathan - 10.63 million viewers

The show is not getting the axe any time soon.

kazza474 · December 30, 2012 6:23 am

Thanks whistling. I had neither the time no inclination to screencap the tables I was looking at.

Suffice to say, it's not going anywhere this season. It may develop a personality of its own; but again it is the concept I am against.
I have to say Lucy Lui is one of my least favourite actors. Regardless, the actors don't deserve the unsupported drubbing they are getting. They are as credible detective show characters as most others in this genre are.
They are just not Holmes & Watson to me.

Mountain Momma · December 30, 2012 10:14 pm

whistling in the dark wrote:
As of mid-season hiatus, Elementary is the highest rated new series of the year. And CBS obviously has some faith in the show since they gave it the coveted post-Superbowl slot and ordered an additional two episodes after giving it a full season order.

There was a drop in ratings after the first two episodes, but that happens with most new shows. Since episode three, the ratings have been consistent at just over 10 million. They've been number one in total viewers in their 10 p.m. time slot since the premiere and have been number one in key demos for all but the last two weeks.

Pilot- 13.29 million viewers
While You Were Sleeping - 11.22 million viewers
Child Predator - 10.84 million viewers
Rat Race - 10.16 million viewers
Lesser Evils - 10.5 million viewers
Flight Risk - 10.9 million viewers
If this is the highest rated new series of the year (in the USA), I can't imagine how uninteresting the rest of the stuff is.
One Way to Get Off - 10.72 million viewers
The Long Fuse - 10.36 million viewers
You Do it to Yourself - 10.94 million viewers
The Leviathan - 10.63 million viewers

The show is not getting the axe any time soon.

ancientsgate · December 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Swanpride wrote:
The actors are not the problem...well, I HAVE trouble with the accent of the guy who plays Sherlock, I only understand half of what he says, but if the show itself were good, I would put more effort into trying or would be at least inclined to watch when it hits my home market. It's the concept which fails.

It's one of the shows where I have to crank up the sound to catch the dialogue. I only watch it when I'm home alone, lol, so I don't blast out everyone else, when I've got the speakers turned up louder than an incoming jet plane with the brakes on. Doing that, I get most of what he says. Funny that you mention that, about his accent, because I actually wish he sounded more British, but maybe my biggest wish is that they'd simply write him some British-English words to say. I imagine the American writers of the show don't know any unique British-English words, but seems to me, they could find some, if they looked hard enough. They could even ask the actor to supply them with some. *g*

If the show were called Sam Holmes instead of Sherlock Holmes, I think I could accept it and its premise better. I doubt that most American watchers are versed in ACD canon and maybe even fewer have watched the BBC Sherlock, so as far as they're concerned, it's just some crime/cop drama with a quirky Brit lead with a semi-familiar name, and an Asian gal who mostly follows him around. Looked at that way, it's a pretty acceptable show. If I could simply suspend what I know about "the" Sherlock Holmes, as well as our BBC Sherlock, I could relax and enjoy this Elementary a lot more.

Last edited by ancientsgate (December 31, 2012 1:13 pm)

josabby · March 20, 2013 1:21 pm

I thought I'd like Elementary because I like shows like Bones, I've watched five full episodes and had to force myself to finish them (like when I read the twilight series becase sisters and some of my friends begged me to. they were so certain I'd like it). I'm no Sherlock purist. Making Watson female would have been ok if the show was actually good or if Joan Watson was as interesting as some of Lucy Liu's other characters. The New York setting might be alright if it wasn't so gerneric. There just isn't any chemistry between any of the characters. Gregson and Marcus or ridiculously bland. I've loved Johnny Lee Miller in the past and melted when I saw him play Edmund in Mansfield Park and Knightley in Emma, so I thought I may enjoy him as Sherlock. Not only are Sherlock and Joan boring compared Sherlock and John, (Benedict and Martin, and heck RDJ and Jude), they don't compare to other male/ female crime solve teams like Bones and Booth (JLM could have the charisma od David Boreanaz and Lucy Liu has the ability to be as likeable and intelligent as Emily Deschanel). JLM and LL don't stand out even against the boring characters on shows like the CSIs and Criminal Minds.

Elementary is poorly written and poorly directed. There are parts where it's painfully obvious I'm supposed to laugh, and I'm just annoyed. There are parts when I'm supposed to feel sorry for Sherlock and/or Joan and I just want to yell "get over it" at them. The mysteries are crap and the resolutions and criminal motivations are pulled from the posterior orphases of the writers (they're polished turds). The story archs just aren't compelling. Joan and Sherlock *say* they care about each other, but I just roll my eyes. John and Sherlock on BBC, continually show that they care for each other. People say that JLM's Sherlock is more "human" than BC's. I beg to differ. Put John in peril, then tell me BC's Sherlock is not human. People say BC is rude to the people around him. I don't think it's intentional. It's more of a lack of self awareness. When he realized he'd insulted Molly in Belgravia, he clearly felt bad and sincerely apologized. He definately felt bad in Hounds of Baskerville when he realized he'd hurt John by saying he didn't have friends, and for not knowing Lestraude's first name is Greg. Moffat and Gatniss have both stated that the two series are about Sherlock discovering his own humanity and ability to care for others (John, Lestraude, Mrs. Hudson, Molly). They show that journey perfectly. I've heard people say that JLM's Sherlock is more mature than BC's. I beg to differ on that as well. He plays childish pranks on Joan that aren't even clever. He wines about his daddy issues and lives in an uber nice apartment his daddy pays for, and has sex with prostitutes. BC's Sherlock is a little bratty, but at least he can take care of himself. And he's bratty behavior is entertaining.

Watching Elementary, I had the same reaction Sherlock had early in the Great Game when he didn't have a case (except I wasn't literally shooting a wall, lol). I also heard Dark Willow from Buffy saying "bored now."

Why was Elementary so determined to bore me when Sherlock BBC and many other shows and films are so delinghtfully interesting. I may give it another chance someday, but there's just too much else to do in too little time right now.

Sherlock BBC is Organic, Elementary is contrived.

Last edited by josabby (March 20, 2013 1:44 pm)

Mary Me · March 20, 2013 7:26 pm

Oh, we do have a thread for this? Wasn't aware of it...

What I think:
Until now I've managed to watch ten episodes so I would say I've got an impression of the show now.
And after ten episodes I can tell: It's always the same! The concept of every episode is always the same:
- Holmes (I don't dare to call him Sherlock) has got a case and soon he's also got an assumption
- Then he's convinced that he has solved the case and the police arrests a suspect
- Suddenly he begins to doubt
- He sees that he's been wrong (or that there's more behind the case) and this time he really solves it.
The End.

SusiGo · March 20, 2013 9:12 pm

I gave up after four or five episodes. For me it was a waste of time.

Michele · March 20, 2013 9:48 pm

josabby wrote:
I thought I'd like Elementary because I like shows like Bones, I've watched five full episodes and had to force myself to finish them (like when I read the twilight series becase sisters and some of my friends begged me to. they were so certain I'd like it). I'm no Sherlock purist. Making Watson female would have been ok if the show was actually good or if Joan Watson was as interesting as some of Lucy Liu's other characters. The New York setting might be alright if it wasn't so gerneric. There just isn't any chemistry between any of the characters. Gregson and Marcus or ridiculously bland. I've loved Johnny Lee Miller in the past and melted when I saw him play Edmund in Mansfield Park and Knightley in Emma, so I thought I may enjoy him as Sherlock. Not only are Sherlock and Joan boring compared Sherlock and John, (Benedict and Martin, and heck RDJ and Jude), they don't compare to other male/ female crime solve teams like Bones and Booth (JLM could have the charisma od David Boreanaz and Lucy Liu has the ability to be as likeable and intelligent as Emily Deschanel). JLM and LL don't stand out even against the boring characters on shows like the CSIs and Criminal Minds.

Elementary is poorly written and poorly directed. There are parts where it's painfully obvious I'm supposed to laugh, and I'm just annoyed. There are parts when I'm supposed to feel sorry for Sherlock and/or Joan and I just want to yell "get over it" at them. The mysteries are crap and the resolutions and criminal motivations are pulled from the posterior orphases of the writers (they're polished turds). The story archs just aren't compelling. Joan and Sherlock *say* they care about each other, but I just roll my eyes. John and Sherlock on BBC, continually show that they care for each other. People say that JLM's Sherlock is more "human" than BC's. I beg to differ. Put John in peril, then tell me BC's Sherlock is not human. People say BC is rude to the people around him. I don't think it's intentional. It's more of a lack of self awareness. When he realized he'd insulted Molly in Belgravia, he clearly felt bad and sincerely apologized. He definately felt bad in Hounds of Baskerville when he realized he'd hurt John by saying he didn't have friends, and for not knowing Lestraude's first name is Greg. Moffat and Gatniss have both stated that the two series are about Sherlock discovering his own humanity and ability to care for others (John, Lestraude, Mrs. Hudson, Molly). They show that journey perfectly. I've heard people say that JLM's Sherlock is more mature than BC's. I beg to differ on that as well. He plays childish pranks on Joan that aren't even clever. He wines about his daddy issues and lives in an uber nice apartment his daddy pays for, and has sex with prostitutes. BC's Sherlock is a little bratty, but at least he can take care of himself. And he's bratty behavior is entertaining.

Watching Elementary, I had the same reaction Sherlock had early in the Great Game when he didn't have a case (except I wasn't literally shooting a wall, lol). I also heard Dark Willow from Buffy saying "bored now."

Why was Elementary so determined to bore me when Sherlock BBC and many other shows and films are so delinghtfully interesting. I may give it another chance someday, but there's just too much else to do in too little time right now.

Sherlock BBC is Organic, Elementary is contrived.

Completely Agree. It would probably be another tolerable 'cop show' but to link it to ACD classic stories then totally disregard the original characters seems silly. I believe they have seen the response of Sherlock and to cash in on that they've just used the names, Which I guess has worked. Who here would have watched this if it wasn't another modern Sherlock adaptation?

kaye · March 30, 2013 6:20 pm

Seeing the success of Sherlock, CBS wanted to do their own version for U.S. television. However, they could not have their own Holmes and Watson running around London because they would have been sued by the producers of Sherlock. So when they did their own show, in order to avoid too many similarities with BBC Sherlock, they had to change major things - like the location of the show, and Watson's gender, etc. And they changed Homles back story so much to make him different too.

The bottom line is that Elementary has little to no resemblance to the original stories or cannon. It may be a good crime drama, but it is not a good Sherlock Holmes drama. That point is hard to argue.

The character of Sherlock Holmes has influcenced many characters in crime dramas over the years. That really is not a problem. For example, I am a fan of The Mentalist, and the character Simon Baker playes has many of the characteristics of Sherlock Holmes. But, he is not calling himself Sherlock Holmes or trying to be that character. When Elementary comes along claiming to be a modern-day Sherlock Holmes show, they had better be prepared for criticisim that rightly comes their way because they have totally gutted the character of Holmes and the cannon completely.

sherlockskitty · April 2, 2013 11:54 pm

Mary Me said what I was thinking. I have watched all Elementary eps till now, even the super bowl one which wasn't very super; I have to say SHERLOCK is my favorite. It's the cases, the references to ACD canon, and the CLOTHES, you lot!!! Elementary doesn't pop out at me like SHERLOCK does.