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June 2, 2013 9:41 pm  #41


Re: Why not Molly?

I believe he cares for Molly more than Lestrade too.

My theory is Molly was overlooked because when Jim saw them together in the lab it looked like Sherlock couldn't care less for her. If he had then I expect there would have been 4 bullets x


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He does love to be dramatic.
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June 3, 2013 11:51 am  #42


Re: Why not Molly?

IamSherLock3d wrote:

He cares more for Molly than Lestrade; he arrested him, whilst Molly helped fake his death 

I wouldn´t agree to that. It´s just a different kind of relationship between Sherlock and Lestrade on the one hand and Sherlock and Molly on the other.
He needs them both: Lestrade provides him with cases (what a boring life would Sherlock lead without these?), risks his own career with bringing an "amateur" to crime scenes (in TRF also his personal "fall" seems to start). He was invited to the Christmas Party in ASiB. He thinks "Sherlock will be a great man one day". He defends him against his own colleagues - they are a kind of team, Lestrade and Sherlock. He comes to Baskerville to have an eye on him (if Mycroft has sent him or not is not important). He warns him, gives him the opportunity to escape before he comes to arrest him. And his role during TRF is not clear for me till now, he is very very passive while Sherlock (and John) are escaping. And he is not looking for him at St. Barts, although he knows that Sherlock is quite often there. Etcetc. I am absolutely sure Sherlock knows what a loyal friend (and admirer) he has in him.
In Molly as well, of course. But that she´s in love with Sherlock makes it more difficult, and for somebody like Moriarty the friendship to Lestrade must be much more obvious.
BTW: Why not Mycroft? As mentioned before the brothers played a clever game with Moriarty, for him Mycroft looked like his brother´s traitor. About this we will hear a lot more in series 3, I assume.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (June 3, 2013 11:57 am)

 

June 3, 2013 4:08 pm  #43


Re: Why not Molly?

Did Sherlock know that Moriarty was just agreeing to all the names he said? If so I think he is trying to protect Molly. Lestrade can look after himself, as he has the police, molly is less protected. He also needs her for his plans, so i think he suggests the names so he is in control. If he hadnt had suggested John, Mrs Huddson and Lestrade Moriarty might have gone for Molly and thus disrupted the plan. 

 

June 4, 2013 2:32 pm  #44


Re: Why not Molly?

IamSherLock3d wrote:

Did Sherlock know that Moriarty was just agreeing to all the names he said? If so I think he is trying to protect Molly. Lestrade can look after himself, as he has the police, molly is less protected. He also needs her for his plans, so i think he suggests the names so he is in control. If he hadnt had suggested John, Mrs Huddson and Lestrade Moriarty might have gone for Molly and thus disrupted the plan. 

 
 In my eyes Sherlock tries to find out carefully who is meant with "everybody". He thinks quickly whom Moriarty could mean: Of course, first of all John Watson. But this is not enough, "everybody", so then - Mrs Hudson. Okay, Nr. 2 revealed. "Everybody" again, maybe the most difficult part to find out, but as I mentioned before, Lestrade is much more obvious a friend to Sherlock than Molly or Mycroft. Then Sherlock is lucky, Moriarty reveals that these three are all - "three bullets, three gunmen". So Sherlock can be sure, that his confidents during TRF - first of all Mycroft, to whom he never has contact in that time, and second Molly, who offered her help empathically short before - are no targets and he can go on.

 

June 4, 2013 6:58 pm  #45


Re: Why not Molly?

Its important to Sherlock that he is in control, but acts a bit thick

 

June 5, 2013 9:05 am  #46


Re: Why not Molly?

We don't know that there are actually three gunmen. I looks like it is so.
There can be just one or even none.
Moriarty wanted Sherlock to believe in three gunmen. That is all we know.

Moriarty made Sherlock name three human beings he cares about. Sherlock did adress them as people he cares about. Sherlock chose them and Moriarty just confirmed them. He could have confirmed other names like this, too. It is supposed to be a threat that Sherlock can't verify in this exact moment.

We are in the same situation right now: The writers showed us three potential people who can be assassins. We are supposed to believe it. We can't verify it right now. The pink police guy can just be a police officer. The fierce gunman in 221b can be somebody Mycroft send there to protect Mrs H.
The last and most suspicious "assassin" is a bit late and arrives when Moriarty is already dead. What does that mean?

And why not Molly?
Sherlock knows that Molly is not in danger.

Last edited by Be (June 5, 2013 9:07 am)

 

June 7, 2013 12:15 pm  #47


Re: Why not Molly?

Be wrote:

We don't know that there are actually three gunmen. I looks like it is so.
There can be just one or even none.
Moriarty wanted Sherlock to believe in three gunmen. That is all we know.

Moriarty made Sherlock name three human beings he cares about. Sherlock did adress them as people he cares about. Sherlock chose them and Moriarty just confirmed them. He could have confirmed other names like this, too. It is supposed to be a threat that Sherlock can't verify in this exact moment.

We are in the same situation right now: The writers showed us three potential people who can be assassins. We are supposed to believe it. We can't verify it right now. The pink police guy can just be a police officer. The fierce gunman in 221b can be somebody Mycroft send there to protect Mrs H.
The last and most suspicious "assassin" is a bit late and arrives when Moriarty is already dead. What does that mean?

You can see also John´s face in the crosslines of a bull´s eye (target), directly after showing "his" asssassin. And also the other assassins are directly connected with the line Moriarty - assassin - victim. I am still thinking Sherlock is teasing out the names of Moriarty. It makes sense and leads to his despair of having to jump now. If there was protection everywhere, why jump then? Showing three assassins who are "in reality" lifeguards or whatever is too complicated in my eyes. The writers have red herrings, I know, but this would be more than that, it somehow is in danger also to violate film laws. You see somebody with a gun and a target on somebody: Normally this means, the gun aims the one in the target. So simple.
Sometimes I think the more time we have until series 3 the more complicated we start to think http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png
.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (June 7, 2013 12:16 pm)

 

June 7, 2013 12:22 pm  #48


Re: Why not Molly?

I also think that the sniper is a real assassin.

Still:
Why jump if it is not nescessary? Risk one's life to proof one is clever?

 

June 7, 2013 12:23 pm  #49


Re: Why not Molly?

I don´t understand: It is necessary to jump. If not, his friends are all getting killed. That´s why Moriarty killed himself: To prevent that Sherlock is teasing out the recall code. So there´s no chance not to jump anymore.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (June 7, 2013 12:29 pm)

 

June 7, 2013 12:36 pm  #50


Re: Why not Molly?

Maybe you are right. I am just saying that we don't know yet. The pink guy can be somebody who planted the doubt about Sherlock in Sally's head. But he can also be just a policeman. We don't know it. He is edited in for us to believe it. He just talks to Sally and he is sitting at his desk. So what?

The guy in 221 b is with Mrs H. He has a tatoo and looks fierce. So what? A tatoo is a tatoo. He can be somebody to protect Mrs. H. with his gun. He is there early in the morning when John was at the Diogenes Club after Mycroft has learned that John has no idea what is happening. So Mycroft sent somebody to be with Mrs H. If Moriarty wanted to kill Mrs. H why would he send the assassin in the morning the previous day? The rooftop threat happend the next day.

Moriarty was not afraid of being tortured by Sherlock. He said: You can torture me; you can do what you like with me. Nothing will prevent them from pulling the trigger. That is not the reason for his suicide. The line not being an angel is not enough either. He killed himself because Sherlock gave him "an extra incentive".

Last edited by Be (June 7, 2013 1:04 pm)

 

June 15, 2013 9:27 pm  #51


Re: Why not Molly?

I've just re-watched TRF and amongst the scenes which took me surprise the first time around were the ones with Molly. When Molly tells Sherlock how he looks sad when John's not looking etc totally stunned me. I guess I was being a bit mean to her like Sherlock and my reaction was "Oh my, Molly said something insightful for a change!" and I loved her for it. Molly does notice, she does see and when she offers Sherlock help I think he realises she is someone worth his time. I shall be very interested in series 3 to discover how Molly's helping him changes their relationship, afterall, she's a trained professional and I want to see her stand up for herself more and be recognised as the educated woman she is. As for "Why not Molly?" - protection for sure.


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June 16, 2013 11:03 am  #52


Re: Why not Molly?

My latest theory is that Sherlock realised what Moriarty's plans would be right after The Great Game, and that he made his own plans, involving Molly, from then on.
Moriarty's plan is to wash his own name clean by killing people, then blaming it on Sherlock and forcing him to commit suicide. He will use Sherlock's friends to put him under pressure. Moriarty has seen in TGG that Sherlock and John would kill and die for each other, so there is no point in denying that. Afterwards Sherlock shows as little affection as possible towards other people. He even says "I don't have friends" and later that John is his only friend, both in public places where other people can hear it. In SiB he is more or less forced to show how much he likes Mrs Hudson. Lestrade follows Sherlock almost everywhere, so it's quite obvious that they are friends as well.
Then in Reichenbach when Moriarty says he will kill Sherlock's friends, he says all of them, that means more than one and probably also more than two. So Sherlock begins with "John" (obvious), then says "Mrs Hudson" and eventually "Lestrade", and luckily that is all. Three bulletts, Moriarty says. He doesn't mention Molly.
Sherlock was not very kind to Molly in TGG, and Moriarty as Jim from IT saw his behaviour towards her, so he probably assumes Sherlock doesn't care about Molly at all. However, Moriarty thinks with the mind of a mass murderer while Sherlock is at least a bit more human. There might be a kind of friendship between him and Molly that is not so obvious.
Sherlock is nicer to Molly in series 2 (not much nicer, just a little more considerate), probably because he already knows he will need her help. Moriarty doesn't suspect anything regarding her involvement, so Sherlock's plans work out in the end. I still have no idea how and how much she helped him, and I'm also not sure if she knows everything or if she even knows that the Fall is just a trick and that Sherlock survived. But I'm pretty sure she played a major role in Sherlock's plans.


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …
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… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

July 11, 2013 8:05 am  #53


Re: Why not Molly?

Russell wrote:

Well, others already beat me to the answer was going to post before I had a chance to earlier, but yeah... it's not overly complicated why Molly was left out. Moriarty has seen how Sherlock reacts with John in danger, probably heard/presumed of a similar relation with Mrs. Hudson, and Lestrade he figures he must respect or need him around to at least a little degree, having such a long professional relationship with. Molly on the other hand, 'Jim' was there when they met Sherlock, and saw how indifferent he was to. And besides working together, there's never been any indication of anything else. As Molly noted in such a deeply pointed way when she decided to press Sherlock about it, she 'doesn't matter'. You could tell that kinda nudged/surprised him to have her call him on that, and in a strange way, despite being sorta 'mean', that's kinda what saved him... realizing that Moriarty would think she didn't matter either, so she was the perfect outsider for him to reach out to, knowing she would do anything to help him get out of the confrontation alive (even better that she's in autopsy and could help fake it), with Moriarty none the wiser.

On the whole Molly - Sherlock - Moriarty story, this is how I would like this to play out in the end (just my very personal assumptions/wishful thinking here, guys):

Moriarty saw how Sherlock treated or rather overlooked Molly in the lab when he was there, concluded that Molly didn't matter to Sherlock, and as Moriarty himself only used her as a pawn to set up a first meeting with Sherlock, he just dropped her after she had served her purpose.
As we all should have concluded by now, Moriarty for all his brilliance of mind is or was in fact a very wretched and lonely creature, who truly has/had no heart and I think can't/couldn't really relate to human emotions at all, other than using those bonds against his victims in order to blackmail them.

Sherlock on the other hand, as Moriarty points out in the pool scene, has a heart, which is what really divides those two characters, as they both share the same brilliance of mind and love of games and the outwardly display of coldness.
I think Moriarty underestimated the importance of the discovery that Sherlock has a heart  - other than using it against Sherlock - would take on in this very elaborate game of his.
He was incapable of realising, that Sherlock, due to John's influence was and is obviously developing a greater ability in dealing with people and at least recognising "sentiment" in others. In series 2 we can already see Sherlock trying to be more human in general and also different towards Molly (see the Christmas scene where he actually apologises in a very nice way, can't see the Sherlock of series 1 do that), which doesn't mean that Sherlock will turn into what is commonly viewed as an all nice and sociable chap
Between the first meeting in the lab and the Reichenbach Fall quite a greater period of time had elapsed in the Sherlock world and in that period Sherlock has undergone a certain positive development in the humanity department. I think Moriarty truly understimated this and also completely forgot about Molly, just as he underestimated Molly's loyalty to Sherlock.
I think he probably also never comprehended, that despite all the resentments between Sherlock and Mycroft, Mycroft deeply cares about his brother.

I would love to see that in this twisted way Moriarty's heartlessness is what led him into overlooking a key player and actually made him lose his game in the end.

 


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"When you walk with Sherlock Holmes, you see the battlefield" M.H.

"My brother has the brain of scientist or a philosopher, and yet he elects to be a detective...what might we deduce about his heart?" M.H.

"Home is now behind you, the world is ahead."
 
 

July 11, 2013 8:11 am  #54


Re: Why not Molly?

I have long stated that Molly is the key.  Sherlock's secret weapon.  Moriarty had misjudged both her and Sherlock, that was his downfall.


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