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December 1, 2012 1:54 pm  #1


Why not Molly?

When Moriarty threatens to kill all of Sherlocks friends: why doesn't he mention Molly?

Sherlock does like Molly as well. Of course he uses her sometimes but they are friends. After all she is on the christmas party and he actually apologizes to her.

One theory is he already used her whilst dating her to get to Sherlock. So he has already used this very pawn.
Or it has to be so, for the sake of Molly helping Sherlock.

There must be some reason... otherwise Moriarty would have counted her as a friend of Sherlock and positioned a Killer...

MK


(if there already is such a topic... just delete or block or whatever...)

 

December 1, 2012 2:34 pm  #2


Re: Why not Molly?

This has been discussed in several other articles I believe, you'll have to read through the relevant section on theories to find them.

Molly is not a 'main character' in any of Sherlock's aspects of life; those being friends, work and background.
John is top of his "friends" category; Lestrade top of his "work" category; Mrs Hudson top of his "background" category.

Molly is ... at best a 'co-worker' but even there she is not really an equal/peer of his in anyway. So (much to some fans' dismay), she really isn't that much of a key figure in his life. Let's face it, he could easily carry on his work without her there, there are always other lab assistants who could be manipulated just as easily as Sherlock does with Molly.


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Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

December 1, 2012 4:13 pm  #3


Re: Why not Molly?

If she is that unimportant I must have gotten something wrong...
I think I'll just have to watch all episodes again! ;) (...like I need an excuse for thet... ^^)

     Thread Starter
 

December 1, 2012 6:06 pm  #4


Re: Why not Molly?

kazza, could you please post a link to the involved threads? That might be helpful to catch up with the discussion 

Lelli, I found it interesting that Sherlock mentions Molly in his rooftop phone call. As #4, after a moment of hesitating, but, still...
"I want you to tell Lestrade; I want you to tell Mrs Hudson, and Molly ..."


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

December 1, 2012 6:56 pm  #5


Re: Why not Molly?

Yes me too! Because he sort of hesitates, doesn't he?
I discussed that with pitagor quite some time...

     Thread Starter
 

December 1, 2012 7:01 pm  #6


Re: Why not Molly?

Does he know she's not on the contract killers' list?


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

December 1, 2012 7:09 pm  #7


Re: Why not Molly?

I do think so... Moriarty made that quite clear... He only named John, Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade.
Maybe the "everyone" could have confused him but Moriarty also said 3 Bullets...
If that is what you meant...

     Thread Starter
 

December 1, 2012 7:44 pm  #8


Re: Why not Molly?

I wondered if Sherlock knew she was not on the list - and thus it is indeed something that he mentions her in his farewell message.
Maybe a moment Moriarty didn't expect?


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

December 2, 2012 12:46 am  #9


Re: Why not Molly?

I think Molly is involved in whatever Sherlock did to fake his death and I have always assumed he mentions Molly in the phone call as a way to cover her, to take any suspicion John could have away from her. I really don't know how to explain it correctly or better than that 


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December 2, 2012 2:22 am  #10


Re: Why not Molly?

Lelli wrote:

If she is that unimportant I must have gotten something wrong...
I think I'll just have to watch all episodes again! ;) (...like I need an excuse for thet... ^^)

In a way, you have done something 'wrong' as have the others answering the question.
You are all looking at this from your perspective, you are assuming Moriarty sees things as we all do.

Moriarty is the one who delivered the lines; Moriarty is the one who decided who was important enough to mention in the threat.
In Moriarty's mind, Molly IS unimportant in what is going on.

I do tend to agree with him on this however.

Yes Sherlock mentions her in his phone call; he is using her services in covering this 'suicide' up ; it would be odd if he DIDN'T mention her & could arouse John's suspicion later on if he thinks things through. (As Irene as posted above)


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

December 2, 2012 3:23 am  #11


Re: Why not Molly?

I think that Sherlock is hardly attached to Molly emotionally. Sure, he would be upset if she was killed or hurt because of him, but only in the same way that he was upset when the old woman was blown up or a kid was kidnapped as part of Moriarty's game with him. He wouldn't weep over her body or anything like that, and the entire Sherlolly ship is completely unfounded.

He's done stupid things to protect John and Mrs. Hudson, like throwing Americans out of windows and pulling a gun on a man with several assassins stationed on the rooftop. It was surprised that Lestrade was included but I suppose it makes sense. He's never shown a relationship with Molly that is not related to getting what he wants. With John, the entire relationship is give and take. With Mrs. Hudson, he threw a man out a window because he hurt her. With Lestrade, he uses his talents to bolster his reputation without any reward besides a little ego stroking (although that's always a plus with him!). What has he done for Molly?


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December 2, 2012 4:00 am  #12


Re: Why not Molly?

Well, others already beat me to the answer was going to post before I had a chance to earlier, but yeah... it's not overly complicated why Molly was left out.  Moriarty has seen how Sherlock reacts with John in danger, probably heard/presumed of a similar relation with Mrs. Hudson, and Lestrade he figures he must respect or need him around to at least a little degree, having such a long professional relationship with.  Molly on the other hand, 'Jim' was there when they met Sherlock, and saw how indifferent he was to.  And besides working together, there's never been any indication of anything else.  As Molly noted in such a deeply pointed way when she decided to press Sherlock about it, she 'doesn't matter'.  You could tell that kinda nudged/surprised him to have her call him on that, and in a strange way, despite being sorta 'mean', that's kinda what saved him... realizing that Moriarty would think she didn't matter either, so she was the perfect outsider for him to reach out to, knowing she would do anything to help him get out of the confrontation alive (even better that she's in autopsy and could help fake it), with Moriarty none the wiser.


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December 3, 2012 3:18 am  #13


Re: Why not Molly?

Well, since this is all make-believe, and it's all in fun, I'll beg to differ with much of what has been posted here (and vigorously proclaimed elsewhere).

I believe Sherlock does care for Molly, and view the idea that she means no more to him than the old lady who got herself blown up by talking as naive or at best the opinion of someone who is in denial. To be sure, Sherlock cared nothing for her when the series first began, when their relationship was (apparently) new. In much the same way, he cared nothing for John, Mrs. Hudson or anyone else ("sentimentalise him at your own risk..."). But, just as he has come to care for John and Mrs. Hudson, I believe Sherlock has developed a relationship with Molly that touches him in some way. No, I don't believe it is romantic; those who can't understand how his relationship with John can be platonic fall into the same trap, believing that two people who obviously care for one another must eventually end up "in love".

Why is it so hard to believe that Sherlock cares for Molly? Because she maybe isn't the strongest of women or the cleverest of companions? Then why not criticize the dowdy Mrs. Hudson? Or the inept Lestrade? Clearly, at the beginning of their knowledge of one another, Sherlock has nothing but contempt for Molly. But their relationship has evolved to one of true friendship. Witness the response of Sherlock when he realized, midway through his devastating humiliation of Molly at the Christmas party, that her "special" gift is for himself. No one else knew that. He realized that he had grossly embarrassed someone who truly cares for him and he, quite amazingly, offered a truly tender "apology".

As I have said before, I have trouble with the three names Moriarty chooses, especially "Lestrade". I agree with kazza that there is an excellent chance that Moriarty is in the dark regarding how Sherlock and Molly have grown in their relationship, which explains her not being on the list. But Lestrade as a friend to Sherlock? I don't remember (gasp!), but did Moriarty mention the three bullets, and then Sherlock provided the names? If that was the order of the conversation, then I can understand the choices that Sherlock makes, as he would likely know which three people Moriarty has in mind. But if the order is reversed (i.e., Sherlock didn't have the number three to work with when he mentioned the names), my confusion remains.

But I am confident that, "Why not Molly?", has nothing to do with Sherlock's lack of feelings for her.


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December 3, 2012 5:39 am  #14


Re: Why not Molly?

Tantalus wrote:

...yadda yadda.....
........................ I don't remember (gasp!), but did Moriarty mention the three bullets, and then Sherlock provided the names? If that was the order of the conversation, then I can understand the choices that Sherlock makes, as he would likely know which three people Moriarty has in mind. But if the order is reversed (i.e., Sherlock didn't have the number three to work with when he mentioned the names), my confusion remains.

But I am confident that, "Why not Molly?", has nothing to do with Sherlock's lack of feelings for her.

To refresh your memory: (Thanks Ariane Devere )

JIM: Okay, let me give you a little extra incentive.
(Sherlock frowns. Jim’s voice becomes more savage.)
JIM: Your friends will die if you don’t.
(Fear begins to creep into Sherlock’s eyes.)
SHERLOCK: John.
JIM: Not just John. (In a whisper) Everyone.
SHERLOCK: Mrs Hudson.
JIM (in a whisper, with a delighted smile): Everyone.
SHERLOCK: Lestrade.
JIM: Three bullets; three gunmen; three victims. There’s no stopping them now.

Yes, it does appear that Sherlock chose the names.
Then we see shots of possible gunmen in the vicinity of those 3 people; ... or are they?
Could there actually be more?
Are these people not as suggested ... assassins?
What chance is there that Sherlock would pick the correct 3?
Where do the questions end?
Are you sick of reading unaswerable questions yet?





Stay tuned, I got a million of them! (note: perfectly correct usage of exclamation mark in this instance)


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

December 4, 2012 2:58 pm  #15


Re: Why not Molly?

Thanks, kazza. That was lazy of me, but I wasn't where I could re-watch that segment at the time.

So, my questions remain, and I surely hope Season Three offers some illumination, 'cause those three particular names do trouble me...


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"Perfectly sound analysis. I was hoping you would go a little deeper."
 

January 22, 2013 10:05 am  #16


Re: Why not Molly?

kazza474 wrote:

Lelli wrote:

If she is that unimportant I must have gotten something wrong...
I think I'll just have to watch all episodes again! ;) (...like I need an excuse for thet... ^^)

In a way, you have done something 'wrong' as have the others answering the question.
You are all looking at this from your perspective, you are assuming Moriarty sees things as we all do.

Moriarty is the one who delivered the lines; Moriarty is the one who decided who was important enough to mention in the threat.
In Moriarty's mind, Molly IS unimportant in what is going on.

I do tend to agree with him on this however.

Yes Sherlock mentions her in his phone call; he is using her services in covering this 'suicide' up ; it would be odd if he DIDN'T mention her & could arouse John's suspicion later on if he thinks things through. (As Irene as posted above)

I agree, Moriaty had dated Molly, he would've been perfectly aware of her crush on Sherlock. But Moriaty only saw Molly as a pawn, someone who can be used but cannot be useful themselves. He saw her as a typical girl(ordinary) with a crush on a guy who is (more or less) out of her league. It never occurred to him that Sherlock would enlist the help of this 'ordinary' person, nor that she could actually be of some help.


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January 23, 2013 12:15 am  #17


Re: Why not Molly?

And also, I think the reason Moriaty included Lestrade, was because of when Lestrade came to their flat, and Sherlock said no, and then Lestrade leaves. An ordinary officer would've said, especially one who knows what Sherlock's like, "no, you're coming with me" (that sounded so wrong). There was the camera in the flat, so Moriaty could see this exchange. He could see that Sherlock is friends with Mrd Hudson and John (obviously), and then with this encounter, he could see that Sherlock is friends with Lestrade.


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That's the thing about fanfiction, it's always a self-portrait
People want to believe what is easy, rather than what is right.
"One begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts"
 

February 6, 2013 10:58 am  #18


Re: Why not Molly?

I think Molly is important because she "counts". She is a person Sherlock trusted. He talks to her, he even thinks she is John while looking into the microscope in TRF.
"You do count. I always trusted you.... " One might have to add somethink unspoken:
You are a person in our game who has some purpose. But you told Jim/Richard/Moriarty all about me.
In TGG Jim from IT said it himself: "Molly has told me all about you."
Maybe it is Molly who told Jim Sherlock's life story; not Mycroft.
Molly knew several personal things about Sherlock, Mrs. H. and John. In the Christmas scene she knew about the hip (Mrs. H.) , John' s plan to visit his sister and Sherlock complaining about that. How would she be able to aquire these informations?
It might have been Sherlock himself who gave these informations away to Molly while working in the lab with Molly. Because he trusted her.
But Molly is cute, nice, and innocent, isn't she?
Remember that she lied to Sherlock in the lab in TGG: "We are together" to show off with her trophy boyfriend. To cause some envy in Sherlock? In TRF she said: He wasn't even my boy friend. We went out three times. I ended it."
Jim was at first interested in Molly because she could provide information about Sherlock. Or to get access to Sherlock.
The relationship between Molly and Jim might be important. Jim's gay disguise is a self-portrait. What if he wanted to hide his feelings towards Molly by playing gay? Jim didn't kill her. He even allowed her to end their relationship. That's why she is not on the list of Sherlock's friends to be killed and Sherlock knew it. Maybe she even is Moriarty's pressure point. "Every person has their pressure point. Somebody to protect from harm." Some sentiment on Moriarty's side for Sherlock to exploit?
Moriarty talking about pets and live-in ones sounds a bit sentimental..
Molly counts because she is the key in the game. She counts because of Moriarty's feelings. (not Sherlock's)
If you follow this line ot thought you might find some further subtext.

 

February 6, 2013 11:08 am  #19


Re: Why not Molly?

She may not have ended the relationship with Jim. She may be just saying this to save face.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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February 6, 2013 11:22 am  #20


Re: Why not Molly?

Davina wrote:

She may not have ended the relationship with Jim. She may be just saying this to save face.

 Maybe we have some evidence about that, too. How can you tell who ended a relationship?

 

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