BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock and Empathy

nakahara · September 1, 2015 10:10 pm

John could evolve too, you know? It must not necessarily be Sherlock who always needs to change.

Vhanja · September 1, 2015 10:16 pm

Oh, absolutely, but the emotion/machine kind of evolvement seem to be Sherlock's thing. (And this thread is about Sherlock).

But a thread for John's evolvement throughout the series would be very interesting.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 2, 2015 1:13 am

nakahara wrote:
John could evolve too, you know? It must not necessarily be Sherlock who always needs to change.

Yep.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 2, 2015 1:15 am

nakahara wrote:
dioscureantwins wrote:
I'm afraid I thought S3 Sherlock considerably slower than the man we met in S1 and S2. When they discover the stabbed Bainbridge in the shower he's far less alert and active than earlier. And is empathy necessarily the same as sentiment? Irene is good at what she does because she knows what other people like (empathy). She falters when she gives in to what she likes (sentiment). In S3 Sherlock makes the same mistake. Why he would choose to do so really is beyond me.
Of course that he is slower, but rather than blaming it entirely on sentiment, I think this was caused by combination of various things: torture in Serbia, Sherlock´s return into enormously changed situation in London, John´s adverse reaction to him, the shock of John´s marriage, chaotical situations that Sherlock encountered in TEH... it was too much and Sherlock couldn´t cope with it at once and adjust with it, which caused him being distracted and overwhelmed.

Because if sentiment is the only thing doing this to him, he is really better off in his "machine" form (and thus an anthithesis of the article which started this thread).

I agree on this.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 2, 2015 1:18 am

Vhanja wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
IMO Sherlock has to learn how to unite mind and emotions and we accompany him on his journey. The Sherlock of series 3 is just one stage in which he is driven by emotion rather than by his mind whereas in series 1 and 2 it was the other way round. I am sure we will see him learning how to be emotional and use his brainpower without one obscuring or suppressing the other.

I agree with this, it's how I view it as well. S1 and S2 - S1 in particular - shows us Sherlock at his coldest. He works superbly as a deductive machine, but with very little empathy and sentiment. And thus he's alone. (Or more correct: lonely).

In S3, he lets sentiment cloud his judgement. Like a pendulum he goes from one extreme to another. I am hoping that future series will show us how he manages to balance it out better.

S1 &2 are also showing Sherlock from John's point of view-- and that's not necesarrily the most flattering viewpoint, or fair or even acurate, judging by John's blog...

Lilythiell · September 2, 2015 2:01 pm

Especially as Watson is such an unreliable narrator...

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 5:56 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I'm sorry, I don't see the not welcoming back? I think they were all a bit too occupied with the drama going on between John and Mary, not to mention Sherlock more or less bleeding out in between it all, to focus on much else.

If he wants John back and snugly installed in 221B again that would have been the perfect moment to convince John to file for a divorce. Not in a blunt manner, obviously, Sherlock can be as subtle as Mycroft. He could have started feeding John's anger bit by bit. Instead he forced John and Mary to have it out in his living room (and nearly died again in the process). Strikes me as an odd way of going about it, even though it's Sherlock.

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 6:02 pm

nakahara wrote:
dioscureantwins wrote:
I'm afraid I thought S3 Sherlock considerably slower than the man we met in S1 and S2. When they discover the stabbed Bainbridge in the shower he's far less alert and active than earlier. And is empathy necessarily the same as sentiment? Irene is good at what she does because she knows what other people like (empathy). She falters when she gives in to what she likes (sentiment). In S3 Sherlock makes the same mistake. Why he would choose to do so really is beyond me.
Of course that he is slower, but rather than blaming it entirely on sentiment, I think this was caused by combination of various things: torture in Serbia, Sherlock´s return into enormously changed situation in London, John´s adverse reaction to him, the shock of John´s marriage, chaotical situations that Sherlock encountered in TEH... it was too much and Sherlock couldn´t cope with it at once and adjust with it, which caused him being distracted and overwhelmed.

Because if sentiment is the only thing doing this to him, he is really better off in his "machine" form (and thus an anthithesis of the article which started this thread).

I confess I really don't understand what's happening in S3. I try to make sense of it but I really can't follow. The most reasonable explanation I've come up with so far is that there's been a change of POV between S2 and S3. S1 and S2 were told from John's POV, hence Sherlock seems a miracle. S3 is told from Sherlock's POV, who doesn't think anything he's doing is that out of the ordinary because that's what he does. Should that indeed have been Moffat's and Gatiss' intention then I want John's POV back Or give us Greg's.

Last edited by dioscureantwins (September 2, 2015 6:11 pm)

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 6:10 pm

Vhanja wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
IMO Sherlock has to learn how to unite mind and emotions and we accompany him on his journey. The Sherlock of series 3 is just one stage in which he is driven by emotion rather than by his mind whereas in series 1 and 2 it was the other way round. I am sure we will see him learning how to be emotional and use his brainpower without one obscuring or suppressing the other.

I agree with this, it's how I view it as well. S1 and S2 - S1 in particular - shows us Sherlock at his coldest. He works superbly as a deductive machine, but with very little empathy and sentiment. And thus he's alone. (Or more correct: lonely).

In S3, he lets sentiment cloud his judgement. Like a pendulum he goes from one extreme to another. I am hoping that future series will show us how he manages to balance it out better.

I think you put that very well. The question is though, why does he seem so cold when we first meet him? Why does he describe himself as a high functioning sociopath while he clearly knows enough about psycholoby and modern neuroscience to be aware that term doesn't deliver the goods any longer. And yet this seemingly cold man is able to strike up an instant friendship with John and inspire deep loyalty in the people he helped (Mrs Hudson who's like a mother to him, Angelo) and works with (Greg). Perhaps he has chosen to disengage sentiment from empathy.

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 6:13 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
IMO Sherlock has to learn how to unite mind and emotions and we accompany him on his journey. The Sherlock of series 3 is just one stage in which he is driven by emotion rather than by his mind whereas in series 1 and 2 it was the other way round. I am sure we will see him learning how to be emotional and use his brainpower without one obscuring or suppressing the other.

I agree with this, it's how I view it as well. S1 and S2 - S1 in particular - shows us Sherlock at his coldest. He works superbly as a deductive machine, but with very little empathy and sentiment. And thus he's alone. (Or more correct: lonely).

In S3, he lets sentiment cloud his judgement. Like a pendulum he goes from one extreme to another. I am hoping that future series will show us how he manages to balance it out better.
S1 &2 are also showing Sherlock from John's point of view-- and that's not necesarrily the most flattering viewpoint, or fair or even acurate, judging by John's blog...

Oh funny, that's my explanation as well, except I think John's POV is extremely flattering. He does turn Sherlock into a hero. All. The. Time.

SusiGo · September 2, 2015 7:34 pm

dioscureantwins wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
IMO Sherlock has to learn how to unite mind and emotions and we accompany him on his journey. The Sherlock of series 3 is just one stage in which he is driven by emotion rather than by his mind whereas in series 1 and 2 it was the other way round. I am sure we will see him learning how to be emotional and use his brainpower without one obscuring or suppressing the other.

I agree with this, it's how I view it as well. S1 and S2 - S1 in particular - shows us Sherlock at his coldest. He works superbly as a deductive machine, but with very little empathy and sentiment. And thus he's alone. (Or more correct: lonely).

In S3, he lets sentiment cloud his judgement. Like a pendulum he goes from one extreme to another. I am hoping that future series will show us how he manages to balance it out better.
I think you put that very well. The question is though, why does he seem so cold when we first meet him? Why does he describe himself as a high functioning sociopath while he clearly knows enough about psycholoby and modern neuroscience to be aware that term doesn't deliver the goods any longer. And yet this seemingly cold man is able to strike up an instant friendship with John and inspire deep loyalty in the people he helped (Mrs Hudson who's like a mother to him, Angelo) and works with (Greg). Perhaps he has chosen to disengage sentiment from empathy.

Two ideas - we should not underestimate Mycroft's influence. It seems he has to Sherlock again and again that caring is not an advantage and the idea has stuck. People also sense that Sherlock is different and react in a negative way (think of Seb's "We hated him"). This means a) that he has no friends and b) that he protects himself from being hurt by people's reactions.
John is probably the first person who is not put off by Sherlock's behaviour, and more, who expresses admiration for Sherlock's skills. He does not mind the eccentricities and becomes a sort of compass for social behaviour and manners.

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 8:23 pm

Oh, but I'm convinced that Mycroft actually cares deeply. Too often we preach something that is different from ourselves. I totally agree with you about Seb's reaction standing in for what Sherlock encountered during much of his life. Those scenes with Seb haven't been studied and appreciated enough imho.

Also, what do we have to make of people like Mrs Hudson, Lestrade and Angelo then. They already knew Sherlock and at least admired him.

SusiGo · September 2, 2015 8:34 pm

Mycroft does care for Sherlock but he usually does not show it. He constantly belittles his brother and humiliates him in front of John (just think of the "virgin" comment in ASiB). He dresses his worry as intrusive and condescending behaviour. During the "Also your loss would break my heart" comment he cannot look Sherlock in the face and instantly remarks he must be drugged to say something like that. And Sherlock has internalised Mycroft as a higher instance as we can see in the mind palace scenes in TSoT and HLV. Mycroft may love him but it is not a healthy brotherly relationship if you ask me.

They do like and respect Sherlock. But the question is does he believe or realise it? Of course there is a development towards friendship and he names John, Mrs Hudson, and Lestrade when Moriarty is taunting him on the roof but I think that deep in his heart he does not see himself as a lovable person.

Last edited by SusiGo (September 2, 2015 8:34 pm)

Vhanja · September 2, 2015 8:39 pm

dioscureantwins wrote:
I think you put that very well. The question is though, why does he seem so cold when we first meet him? Why does he describe himself as a high functioning sociopath while he clearly knows enough about psycholoby and modern neuroscience to be aware that term doesn't deliver the goods any longer. And yet this seemingly cold man is able to strike up an instant friendship with John and inspire deep loyalty in the people he helped (Mrs Hudson who's like a mother to him, Angelo) and works with (Greg). Perhaps he has chosen to disengage sentiment from empathy.

SusiGo has some great points above here, but I also love this meta:

Why being a high-functioning sosiopath is so important to Sherlock

I keep coming back to this author and her blog, beause she has written tons of very interesting medical and psyciatric metas about the BBC Sherlock universe.

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 8:54 pm

wellingtongoose's metas are indeed incredibly clever.

dioscureantwins · September 2, 2015 8:55 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Mycroft does care for Sherlock but he usually does not show it. He constantly belittles his brother and humiliates him in front of John (just think of the "virgin" comment in ASiB). He dresses his worry as intrusive and condescending behaviour. During the "Also your loss would break my heart" comment he cannot look Sherlock in the face and instantly remarks he must be drugged to say something like that. And Sherlock has internalised Mycroft as a higher instance as we can see in the mind palace scenes in TSoT and HLV. Mycroft may love him but it is not a healthy brotherly relationship if you ask me.

They do like and respect Sherlock. But the question is does he believe or realise it? Of course there is a development towards friendship and he names John, Mrs Hudson, and Lestrade when Moriarty is taunting him on the roof but I think that deep in his heart he does not see himself as a lovable person.

Well, it's a sniping war between the two of them. I mean, Sherlock isn't exactly very brotherly either. Question is, who started it?

SusiGo · September 2, 2015 9:05 pm

Since Mycroft is older, I think it was he who started it. The mind palaces scenes I mentioned clearly show that Mycroft has been an important influence and has controlled or at least tried to control large parts of Sherlock's life. Paying people to spy on him, having his flat searched by strangers, observing his friends … IMO Sherlock has to free himself from Mycroft's influence in order to fully grow up.

Some quotes:

"I'll be mother."
"And there is a whole childhood in a nutshell."

"I used to think I was an idiot."
"Both of us thought you were an idiot, Sherlock."

Last edited by SusiGo (September 2, 2015 9:05 pm)

Vhanja · September 2, 2015 9:08 pm

What I find quite endearing is that even though Sherlock is always snarky towards Mycroft, he still seeks his approval. Seen in comments like:

"Utility? How do I have utility?"
"Dragon slayer? Is that how you see me?"

It seems as if he's still fishing for compliments from his big brother.

dioscureantwins · September 3, 2015 1:37 pm

I'm convinced that Sherlock already has Mycroft's approval, all of it. But in this he's much like other people, he sees but he doesn't observe. I confess with the parents we were given in S3 the reality of the background I had given them, and which explained so much, has gone pear-shaped. So I hope we will find out how it's possible for two highly intelligent people to so love and admire each other and yet be perpetually at odds.

Zatoichi · September 3, 2015 1:49 pm

I´m thinking that it may have something to do with what happened to "the other one".. unresolved guilt-issues, Sherlock blaming Mycroft, something like that..