BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock OCD?

besleybean · June 16, 2013 7:10 am

I imagine John is fairly neat.

nicbooful · June 16, 2013 7:10 am

I see the flat like his mind. Chaos but with neat little compartments like his bedroom x

reality check · June 17, 2013 6:29 pm

^ I tend to believe his mind is very neatly arranged. Remember the Mind Palace? :o)

Also I don't think Sherlock has OCD.
Perhaps the living room (and the kitchen as well) are looking untidy most of the time, but I believe he knows exactly where to find each thing, if he needs it, because in his eyes it's in order. Piled up.

Another fictional character - Phileas Fogg from *Around the World in Eighty Days* - kept his clothing numbered and listed to wear them regularly, depending on the season. Not to mention his other quirks. ;o)

nicbooful · June 17, 2013 11:05 pm

I agree his mind is neatly arranged like his bedroom but then the main living areas are like an overflow of the chaotic mind we usually see. It's organised chaos.

I see the violin playing as his emotional side seeping out too.

It's not OCD, more like everything around him is an extension of who he is inside x

besleybean · June 18, 2013 5:38 am

Isn't that true for all of us?

Davina · June 18, 2013 6:02 am

My son house-shares with a couple of lads who have OCD. Going by his experience I would say no, unless you count the sock-index thing. The living room is waaaaaaay too messy!

besleybean · June 18, 2013 6:09 am

Maybe it's called somethig other than OCD, I don't know enough about it.
But I'm a bit like it.
My house is the untidiest in the world, yet I am neurotic about certain things being a particular wy,

madwitch58 · September 10, 2013 5:06 pm

Wile Shelock may have some OCD, I think the main this is that he just could care less what the house looks like as long as his stuff is the way he wants it and meals hit the table when he wants them to. Shelock reminds me of a kid that way. "My stuff is where I want it and Mommy feeds me, every thing is all right with my world."
Wile Shelock is no Monk I am glade he is no Sheldon Cooper.

Campom · September 13, 2013 9:26 am

John would be naturally neat due to his army service. Especially as an officer. But as has already been mentioned Mrs Hudson would keep the place tidy anyway. Although "I'm not your housekeeper dear!"

Manticone · October 3, 2013 8:32 am

Iwantthatcoat wrote:
The many Watsons have always portrayed Sherlock as lazy and messy ( apart from the vanity of personal appearance).
I was thinking that anyone with that degree of observation would have a daily struggle detaching from his environment. I mean, can you imagine his cleaning a bathroom? It would never be done, never be clean enough. The details would jump out to him and the cleaner it got the more the details would just stand out. Better messy and chaotic so it can be ignored. A messy space is far more soothing than an almost clean one.

I have OCD but I am not phobic of germs, nor am I incredibly, pathologically tidy. I'm tidy, I keep things clean - but not like that repulsive man on ''Sleeping with the Enemy.''

That said (and beyond issues of tidyness or anything similar) I don't know if enough has been revealed to show Sherlock as likely having OCD. He's passionate about his interests, doggedly almost single minded when he wants to be, but doesn't seem to have obsessions (typically these present as harm obsessions - to self or other) or the compulsions that tend to relieve anxiety.

What you described - with Sherlock being so prone to being overwhelmed by changes (such as when Mrs. Hudson dusts his flat and changes the order of what looks to be his messy apartment) - is that he has an order that he doesn't want disrupted. He can be rather particular. But I don't get the OCD vibe from him. I don't get the sense that he's going to have a melt down if his order is disrupted. When he mentions his sock index (which makes me laugh considering what a pigsty most of the flat is...) I thought it might be one way he channels his intensity and restlessness into some sort of activity. Not because he has to have a sock index, but because he strikes me as the insomniac sort.

Of course, he does like to catalogue items, and put them in order (I could see him alphabetizing his books) - so maybe he's soothed by ordering items, but less concerned about the ordering of items out of an OCD cause?

What John said - about Sherlock seeming aspergerish - is somewhat interesting, because he has *some* tendencies that line up with such a condition (although he also makes good eye contact, moves rather gracefully and doesn't display many other of the key components). So I'm definitely not saying he has aspergers or high functioning autism, but *little* things make me think he may be closer to having a PDD disorder than OCD, if forced to choose.

For example, he trusts John - a lot - and several times in season 1 he cuts John off to qualify why people would like this or that, why they'd like the hat, why they'd want to know he's human. The questions seem almost childlike in a way - as if he can't work the simple (ie. 'boring') realities out - even though his mind can see through a labrythine maze of complexity when it comes to crimes.

I think he's created a little database of common human emotions and reactions and ties it to the evidence he finds, his observations - but sometimes he seems staggeringly unaware of how what he says or does could impact others, such as when he insults Molly during Christmas - then 'reads' her and sees her visibly upset - and apologizes. I really don't think he's trying to be as much of a jerk as he comes across at times. Not always, anyway. (When he outright manipulates someone, I think he understands the mechanics of what he's doing - but he often seems surprised by people's deeper pain once he stops to consider others, and I don't believe he's cruel).

That said, I don't think he's necessarily aspergers - but the whole thing about being overwhelmed got me thinking about sensory processing issues, and overreactivities. I am not aspergers, but I have sensoral sensitivities and many of the same tactics used to calm children or adults with autism I actually employ, such as weighted blankets for sleeping with (this can help calm anyone - but the more reactive the system, usually the more positive results are noted), and as a child I had what could look like 'stims' and I tended to always fidget, seem hyper responsive to stimuli (removing tags from clothing etc.)

Sherlock I could see as having similar issues. He seems to have little, tiny rituals that seem to calm him (I understand why some people may think he has OCD) - and has imposed rules that he finds helps him focus - going so far as to not eat at all on cases. (I can understand him not wanting to feel weighed down with food - I have similar issues) - but this would also be common for a person who had sensory issues.

Even his lamenting being ''bored'' all the time to such a degree that he shoots up the walls with a gun (and he doesn't dislike Mrs. Hudson - I can't see him wanting to stress her!) could hint at underwhelm/ overwhelm sensoral issues. Some people - even without full blown autistic spectrum disorders - can have issues with underwhelm or overwhelm that cause them to do things that seem wildly inappropriate (again, without being autistic). Sherlock doesn't seem very sensory defensive in terms of noises, scents etc. - but certain things fit him.

Another thing to consider is - in the books at least - there were times where it sounded as if ACD's Sherlock could have bipolar. There is someone in my family with bipolar, and some of the descriptions sounded spot on. His impulsivity at times (shooting the walls, stabbing the pig with a harpoon and then trying to hop onto the tube) and his wildly vacillating moods (sometimes he appears so irritable but later gushes over John as being 'wonderful'), his intensity and drive - at times not eating or sleeping - and the hinted experimentation/ usage of cocaine and possibly other drugs (in the books he also shot up morphine) all fit, and in The Sign of the Four, Watson also describes Sherlock as getting into profoundly black moods and then coming out of them...suddenly treating everyone to diner and talking animatedly about everything under the sun (I'll try to get the passage). And the writers certainly love the ACD stories and seemed to consult them a lot when they wrote their version....

Honestly, Sherlock is one tricky and complicated character. (That's partly why I love him so much)

Manticone · October 3, 2013 8:35 am

madwitch58 wrote:
Wile Shelock may have some OCD, I think the main this is that he just could care less what the house looks like as long as his stuff is the way he wants it and meals hit the table when he wants them to. Shelock reminds me of a kid that way. "My stuff is where I want it and Mommy feeds me, every thing is all right with my world."
Wile Shelock is no Monk I am glade he is no Sheldon Cooper.

Yes. In certain ways, you have to wonder how much of what he does is linked to the fact that no one (or very few) people have called him on his behaviour. ;) How much of what he does is linked to his ability to get away with doing bratty things? It's totally possible he doesn't have any disorder, weakness etc. that would cause some of these characteristics. In many respects, he could have been spoiled. Not with friendship or an excessive amount of emotional concern - but Sherlock seems to be used to getting what he wants...

Last edited by Manticone (October 3, 2013 8:35 am)

besleybean · October 3, 2013 4:12 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with either him or his behaviour.

Manticone · October 3, 2013 8:23 pm

besleybean wrote:
I don't think there's anything wrong with either him or his behaviour.

I think he's awesome - but you have to admit: he might be hard to live with... He's brilliant, I love him - but a lot of people wouldn't warm up to him. Insofar as his behaviour keeps people away, I can understand why a caring person like John may have concerns etc.

AliceI · October 9, 2013 6:31 pm

Manticone wrote:
I don't know if enough has been revealed to show Sherlock as likely having OCD. He's passionate about his interests, doggedly almost single minded when he wants to be, but doesn't seem to have obsessions (typically these present as harm obsessions - to self or other) or the compulsions that tend to relieve anxiety.

Normally I don't take a snippet out of someone's post to comment on, because taking something out of context can cloud it's meaning. That is why I took the entire paragraph here.

I want to comment on is the part in parenthesis. (typically these present as harm obsessions - to self or other)

I have to disagree with this statement. My daughter has been diagnosed with OCD and is both on medication for the disorder as well as seeing a weekly counselor. Like you, Manticone, she is not very tidy. As a matter of fact her bedroom is a right mess most of the time. Her stuff (papers, books, what ever she is looking at or working on) tends to explode out of her room into the the living room fairly regularly.

She has many very noticeable obsessions, and many internal ones that the casual observer can not discern, but none of them involve either self harm or harm toward others. These odd little behaviors or obsessions, if not preformed, will begin to cause stress to build in the sufferer until there is a stress related consequence. I have learned a great deal about this disorder so that I can identify building stress in my child any change in the obsessive patterns and see warning signs that will indicate that it is time for a med dose change. What I have learned is that these obsessions can be very subtle as well as rather over the top and exaggerated (example: Monk). The self harm (cutting) I have learned has more to do with anxiety related problems than straight up OCD. I have also found that the percentage of teens who engage in cutting is alarming. (In the neighborhood of 60-70%)

Given this information I, as an adult of nearly half a century, have decided that at least for some of these kids (maybe quite a few of them) cutting is more of a trend. It wasn't THAT long ago that I was in that teenaged soup we call adolescence and I only knew of one kid who cut herself and she was viewed by the cool kids, the geeks, the artsy clicks, the athletes etc. - as a freak. No one had the slightest idea why this girl would purposefully cut herself. Cutting wasn't a trend when I was in high school.

That analysis may be a bit broad, but it seems to fit when I compare my high school days to that of my children. We had plenty of issues as teens. My generation had its own ways of acting out. We still had the same suicide rates as we see today, we had the same number of drug issues as the teens today (different drugs though), but the cutting is new, plain and simple.

I don't even remember what I may have written in this thread before about Sherlock being OCD or not, but given my new understanding of the disorder, I now say that from what we are shown in the BBC one series, Sherlock is not OCD. I do not see any repetitive obsessive behaviors shown. He doesn't have to walk a certain way shortening or lengthening his steps to fit in a particular number between door ways or other side objects. He doesn't need to turn his tea cup a certain number of times before he can take a sip, or have to make sure his typing is symmetrical on the keyboard requiring him to type nonsense and backspace over it. (these are a few of the types of visually obvious obsessive behaviors I can think of off the top of my head)

I mean no disrespect to Manticone or anyone else by these comments. I am simply putting out there my observations based on half a century of living and being the parent of someone who has this disorder.

antigone · March 12, 2014 11:04 am

Hello, everyone.
I recently learnt a few things about Obsessive–compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) (which is not the same as OCD) :
"a personality disorder characterized by a pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, mental and interpersonal control at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency. In contrast to people with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), behaviors are rational and desirable to people with OCPD. OCPD is a chronic non-adaptive pattern of extreme perfectionism, preoccupation with neatness and detail, and a need for control or power over one's environment that causes major suffering and stress, especially in areas of personal relationships. Persons with OCPD are usually inflexible and controlling. They may find it hard to relax, and must plan out their activities down to the minute.The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, (DSM IV-TR = 301.4), a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines obsessive–compulsive personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster C) as:A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:
1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost
2. shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)
3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
4. is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
5. is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value
6. is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things
7. adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes
8. shows rigidity and stubbornnes."

I think that Sherlock has characteristics number
3 (quite obvious),
4 (values; admiration of brains and logic above all, a good friend when he gets to have one, and protective of the people around him),
6 + 8 (more than obvious).
Moreover, Sherlock is the epitome of the perfectionist and details-observer (1+2), but these characteristics obviously don't interfere with his task completion, because, I assume;
- he has achieved to control these qualities of his, in order to be functional at what he does - in other words, he has been partially healed from the disorder
- or he's clever enough to be efficient anyway, so his perfectionism isn't a problem
- or the nature of his work is such that he can use his obsessions as an edge.

I hadn't thought of Sherlock as having this (partially healed) personality disorder till today, when I saw this http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdv2esEUEf1r95h9eo1_500.png Sava's photo, which reminded me of Mycrofts' quote; "Caring is not an advantage".
This saying is a perfect example of how OCPD think about life - a perfect example of their compulsion to;
1) not care about / not value anything that can not be under their control (that is; about anything other than work - "I consider myself married to my work"),
2) emotionally detach therselves from people, so as not to be hurt in case of losing them (remember Sherlock's child trauma with Redbeard), and
3) rationalise everything (remember Sherlock's shock at "The Hounds of Baskerville", when he can't trust his own senses).
That doesn't mean that they achieve not to care and to detach - it's a compulsion. They try to convince themselves that they don't care, in order to have the illusion of control of life and of their own emotions.

As to the causes of the personality disorder, "(...) trauma faced during childhood, [such as physical, emotional or sexual abuse, or other] psychological trauma. Under the environmental theory, OCPD is a learned behavior. People get OCPD by copying others throughout childhood."
I assume Sherlock's trauma was losing Redbeard. Furthermore, as a child he copied his much older brother Mycroft - the person who was "inflexible, controlling, and obsessed over" Serlock, "as a child under his watch" - which he still is .

I actually think that both Sherlock and Mycroft are OCPD people who have managed to be "higly functional" at their work, but disfunctional at human relationaships.
Mycroft is the Bureaucratic subtype; "Empowered in formal organizations; rules of group provide identity and security; officious, high-handed, unimaginative, intrusive, nosy, petty-minded, meddlesome, trifling, closed-minded".
And Sherlock is the Puritanical subtype ; "Austere, self-righteous, bigoted, dogmatic, zealous, uncompromising, indignant, and judgmental; grim and prudish morality; must control and counteract own repugnant impulses and fantasies."

What do you think?

Last edited by antigone (March 12, 2014 11:10 am)

antigone · March 12, 2014 11:34 am

in addition to the above; try to take the test as if you were Sherlock.
http://www.psychforums.com/obsessive-compulsive-personality/topic57651.html

I think it's quite possible that Sherlock has OCPD - only he hasn't done his research, or, most likely, he's trolling Anderson.

Last edited by antigone (March 12, 2014 11:37 am)

belis · March 12, 2014 12:19 pm

My first question to that would be: Have you seen the inside of 221b Baker St? I really can't invisage someone preoccupied with with orderliness living there. DSM IV isn't my manual of choice but let me have a go at going through those criteria.

1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost

The key point here is the later part of the sentence. To the extent that major point of activity is lost. Sherlock pays a lot of attention to details but it doesn't impact on his functioning. Quite to the contrary. He is perfectly able to see the bigger picture. Not a man for schedules either. He can be very flexible if case demands it.

2. shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)

When have we ever seen him unable to complete a project? Again there is a question of nature but also degree. He does have some perfectionist traits but they don't interfere with functioning.

3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)

I give him this one.

4. is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)

Deffinitely not. I think he embraces the gray. Good example for this would be him forgiving Mary. He is not particularly conscientious or scrupulous either. He breaks the rules when it suits him.

5. is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value

Maybe. But maybe all the stuff in Baker st actualy serves a purpose (for experiments and what not). It's not like he hoards old newspapaers etc

6. is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things

Yes, to an extent. Although he will allow Molly and John a degree of autonomy as he trusts that they can do a good job.

7. adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes

No, deffinitely not. He never carries any money and it seems like it has no importance to him.

8. shows rigidity and stubbornnes."

Stubbornnes yes, I'm not sure about rigidity.

So overall I don't think he meets the criteria. The vibe I get of his character doesn't really fit with it either. I think though that he is closer to Obsessive–compulsive personality disorder than he is to OCD.

Last edited by belis (March 12, 2014 7:26 pm)

Willow · March 12, 2014 5:53 pm

Antigone

I have left Sherlock in belis' capable hands, but Mycroft isn't a a bureaucrat; people like that certainly exist but they are weeded out long before they get up to Mycroft's level. It helps if you remember that people like Mycroft make the rules; you can't do that if you are wedded to pre-existing ideas and structures, nor can you do it if you are close minded and unimaginative...

antigone · March 31, 2014 8:28 pm

hello again, belis and Willow.
Thank's for sharing your opinion on the matter.

What eludes you, I think, is that the description of OCPD says "as indicated by four (or more)" of the 8 given characteristics.
And I think that if you re-read my comments on characteristics no 1, 2 , you'll see that I (am trying to) explain why Serlock's perfectionism and obsession with details etc don't hamper his efficiency.
Same with inflexibility about values - he has his own, not accounted for by cultural or religious identification.
+ the reason why he forgives Mary is because he knows that she didn't want to kill him and that she made sure he wouldn't die.

Willow, what do you mean when you say that Mycroft "makes the rules"? I would say he just makes sure that the rules are enforced and that the law and order is maintained.
[Furthermore, I think making the rules doesn't involve great imagination and an open mind - society needs radical law changes, in order for civil disorder to be prevented, only if a severe crisis has to be solved; but most of the time, laws and rules tend to stick to "pre-existing ideas and structures". In fact that's exactly what the whole law system is about; mainting the status quo.
Imagination is mostly needed if you are to break the rules without being caught and also if you are to interpret the rules - but that's the judges' and lawyers' job - not the rule-makers'. ]