BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



September 3, 2012 9:55 am  #1


Sherlock's arsemanship

This isn't really a critique so much as it is an observation. I love the show & hope they make loads more of it.

I'm re-reading some of the earlier Sherlock Holmes stories & found that the original Holmes is not nearly as much of an arse as he is in the show. The key is intent. The original still has Holmes being very cold and very calculating but he doesn't really intend to offend, he sometimes does offend as a by-product of his deductions. On the TV show, Sherlock knows when he is being offensive but doesn't care; So, although in the books, he is a sometimes arse, on the show, it is his defining trait.

And it does work & is needed for the dramatisation but I just never thought that I would use the word "placid" to describe Holmes. However, compared with his modernised counterpart, the Victorian Holmes really is quite placid.

How about you guys? Do you prefer Sherlock with more or less arsemanship? (Not that there's anything wrong with Benedict's current portrayal of Holmes)

 

September 3, 2012 11:13 am  #2


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

I don't care much for the original stories, and was surprised that I find this version really intriguing.
Well, to me it seems this Sherlock is driven - quite the opposite of placid, as you said.
He often acts mean and selfish - sometimes I can say, well, he does it to people who deserve it,
sometimes I could just go    . (Which is also kind of fun, I admit.)
But this creates a wonderful contrast to enhance the delicate and caring moments.
And I think his anger fits are probably more driven than calculated.
I like this radical character, yes. In all the funny and also tragic aspects.

The arses I know from real life are all less bearable to me. Even they hardly reach Sherlock's level.
Maybe also because Sherlock to me often seems stuck in some emotional preschool level.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 3, 2012 11:19 am  #3


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

I don't think there is much difference at all really.
The canon Holmes enjoyed to flex his mind to others but was older and more polite about it.
BBC Sherlock is a younger version, brash but intent is surely not there many times, in fact he has to ask John what the problem is.

You need to look at the different times these 2 are in; in the earlier version what he does IS considered at times to be rude. However he does have impeccable manners which all gentlemen of that time & standing did have.
Similarly, these days the kinds of traits Sherlock displays are considered on a par in 'rudeness' as that of the earlier era. He is not however out & out nasty or disgusting.

They were/are both borderline in their behaviour at times.

Having a Sherlock with THE SAME mannerisms of canon Holmes would not be believable & would not appeal to a large audience.
In short, if he acted that way, you guys would all call him a poof.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

September 3, 2012 12:04 pm  #4


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

One of the things that I love about this version is how, for me, it is truer to how I read ACD's characters than any other version (I always thought they were both younger men, for some reason).  Film and TV interpretations of Sherlock Holmes always seemed watered down to me. This Sherlock is cold, arrogant, childish, well-mannered, twitchy, and funny in a way that has me saying, 'Yes! This is really, finally *him*, the Sherlock Holmes from the books!' Even the modern twists, 3 patch problems and the way others assume that they are a couple sexually as well as emotionally, are 'in character' to me ( I love John's indignant reaction to a paper's use of the old phrase, 'confirmed bachelor', to suggest it).
Anyway, Moftiss have said part of the point of stripping away the Victoriana was to bring the characters alive for the viewer. I think they suceeded brilliantly, for me these incarnations are very real and authentic.
Someone's going to tick me off for referring to them as a 'couple emotionally', aren't they? Ah well. 


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do 'real' people have, then, in their 'real' lives?

So we go round the sun; if we went round the moon, or round and round the garden like a teddy bear, it wouldn't make any difference.

The consolation of imaginary things is not imaginary consolation. -- Roger Scruton
 

September 3, 2012 12:54 pm  #5


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

NW16XE wrote:

One of the things that I love about this version is how, for me, it is truer to how I read ACD's characters than any other version (I always thought they were both younger men, for some reason).  Film and TV interpretations of Sherlock Holmes always seemed watered down to me. This Sherlock is cold, arrogant, childish, well-mannered, twitchy, and funny in a way that has me saying, 'Yes! This is really, finally *him*, the Sherlock Holmes from the books!' Even the modern twists, 3 patch problems and the way others assume that they are a couple sexually as well as emotionally, are 'in character' to me ( I love John's indignant reaction to a paper's use of the old phrase, 'confirmed bachelor', to suggest it).
Anyway, Moftiss have said part of the point of stripping away the Victoriana was to bring the characters alive for the viewer. I think they suceeded brilliantly, for me these incarnations are very real and authentic.
Someone's going to tick me off for referring to them as a 'couple emotionally', aren't they? Ah well. 

Not so much 'tick off' as ask how in the world you think that is 'in character' in relation to the original?
The questioning of their interactions and friendship never happened in the original at all, wasn't the done thing. And I don't mean any emotional or sexual interaction. The equivalent back then would have been to question why they worked together at all, which never happened. Prying into that relationship was never in the canon.

And yes, even the great Jeremy Brett series watered down his demeanour at times.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

September 3, 2012 1:22 pm  #6


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

I am currently reading the original stories (I had read only a few short stories before, but now I am taking it a lot more seriously, one by one), and I can partly agree to what you are saying, saturnR.
He does come across as kinder, offering a kind word and a warm welcome to his clients, never shouting at them or insulting them outright. He also appears more aware of the lives and needs of others around him, especially Watson. He frequently asks him whether he has patients to tend to, never expecting him to be available at all hours.

Now, the things Kazza has pointed out are of course true. The Sherlock Holmes we meet in ACD's stories is an older man, who has obviously learnt from experience, and knows how to treat people. He is still quite a show off, but not in a scary, offensive way, always ready to explain how he arrived at his conclusions. He is also a man of the 19th Century, where personal insults were considered to be a lot worse than today, and manners and social behavioural code were followed almost obsessively. Surely, he would have lost most of his clients, and maybe even ended up in court himself if he had treated them the way BBC Sherlock treats the likes of Henry or even Mrs. Hudson.

Nonetheless, I do feel that Moftiss decided to exaggerate this arrogance and socially awkward behaviour beyond what was necessary for modern viewers. If you watch the Pilot, you will see that he is slightly different in it, speaking in a slower, more every-day voice and language, and generally behaving a little less "weird". I don't know the reasons behind the change (anyone?), but they obviously went with a brasher, even less patient Sherlock in the final version. For me, it is a slight departure from the original, but it works.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"There is no such word as 'impossible' in my dictionary. In fact, everything between 'herring' and 'marmalade' seems to be missing." Dirk Gently

Finally, I have made it to Cipher Expert :-))))) (8.8.2012)
 

September 3, 2012 1:35 pm  #7


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

Well said, HGF, I agree with you. In some ways Moftiss have exaggerated his eccentric, anti-social and sometimes offensive behaviour, in other ways they have "toned down" some traits, e.g. the drug habit. (In SCAN ACD writes: "… and alternating from week to week between cocaine and ambition, the drowsiness of the drug, and the fierce energy of his own keen nature". That is quite strong, BTW). I suppose they have sought to create a balance between the ways the audience thought and felt in Victorian times and in the present. In ACD's days the behaviour shown by the modern Sherlock would have been more offensive an inacceptable than today whereas then people might have tolerated the recreational use of cocaine more willingly than in our time.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 3, 2012 2:55 pm  #8


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

He is a rough diamond in Sherlock. He needs to have some edges knocked off and this is gradually happening. He is a 'work in progress' at the moment moving towards being closer to the original but he will never be exactly the same as this is a modern Sherlock Holmes for our time, not a 'Victorian' version that would be anachronistic and he would still appear weird but for a different reason.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

September 3, 2012 9:48 pm  #9


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

I think another angle Moftiss is going with on with his 21st century Sherlock is the modern day awareness of so-called brain 'disorders', such as high functioning Aspergers, attention deficit disorder - all those neurological labels they pin on people nowadays who have difficulty with so-called normal societal interaction.  These labels have become part of our modern culture.  It works with the BBC Sherlock by making his character edgier, flippant, and inscrutable.  It also serves to heighten both the drama and the humor as he tries to interact with those around him. Older, more mannerly, yet still eccentric ACD Victorian Sherlock just can't be the same as younger, brash, brain hard-wired differently, modern Sherlock.  It works better this way.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

 

September 3, 2012 11:13 pm  #10


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

Well, I think you have a point, Saturn. Reading the canon I also wondered why Moftiss made our Sherlock so much "ruder".
I kinda want to agree with all of what's been said here before, you are all such a bunch of lovely and intelligent people.
The age aspect has to be taken into consideration - younger Sherlock; less mature - and the fact that Holmes was already very eccentric for Victorian times and that nowadays we just might be used to "a bit more eccentric".
But the important thing is that it just works really well for the TV show like this and I wouldn't want our Sherlock to be any different. Less "arsemanship" (funny word) would mean less fun, less John-judging-Sherlock's-behaviour and less... well, eccentricity.

 

September 4, 2012 8:53 pm  #11


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

First off, I just want to say I think this interpretation of Sherlock Holmes is spot on and very canon.

But I can understand what you're saying too...and I think it's basically because we are looking at a younger Holmes, one who hasn't yet developed into the older gentleman he is in the books. Therefore yes, he is a lot more overtly arrogant and rude, and as he gets older, he learns more about the accepted norms of society and can "turn it on and off" better.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Independent OSAJ Affiliate

 

September 22, 2012 11:05 pm  #12


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

I agree the modern Sherlock has some old fashioned ideas and can be polite, kind and considerate to John. He laughs with John, nobody else. To others who diss him first he retaliates with biting deductions. Also at Christmas, which I think he finds artificial, he goes off on one is rude to Molly and apologises very formally and with warm sincerity. We see a change as he gets a little older and becomes more aware of social skills, thanks to John's coaching, but he's still got some maturing to do yet before he is able to as our Sherlock Admin puts it can turn the tap on and off under duress.

Add in that only 50 plus years ago most young people's idea of outrageous was Elvis music and jive dancing, not throwing missiles at policemen which is not rare in this last 25 years. Holmes was probably cutting edge as read by Victorian readers and no doubt by my grandmother bless her who thought a man on the moon was preposterous and was uncomfortable using public phone boxes. Times have changed.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We solve crimes, I blog about it and he forgets his pants, so I wouldn’t hold out too much hope. (Scandal in Belgravia)

I asked you for one more miracle. I asked you to stop being dead..........I heard you.(The Empty Hearse)
 

September 23, 2012 4:31 am  #13


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

kazza474 wrote:

I don't think there is much difference at all really.
The canon Holmes enjoyed to flex his mind to others but was older and more polite about it.
BBC Sherlock is a younger version, brash but intent is surely not there many times, in fact he has to ask John what the problem is.

You need to look at the different times these 2 are in; in the earlier version what he does IS considered at times to be rude. However he does have impeccable manners which all gentlemen of that time & standing did have.
Similarly, these days the kinds of traits Sherlock displays are considered on a par in 'rudeness' as that of the earlier era. He is not however out & out nasty or disgusting.

They were/are both borderline in their behaviour at times.

Having a Sherlock with THE SAME mannerisms of canon Holmes would not be believable & would not appeal to a large audience.
In short, if he acted that way, you guys would all call him a poof.

This has always been my opinion: anyone is a product of the times that they are born in. I feel like if we took our modern-day Cumberbatch Sherlock and stuck him in Victorian times he would be practically identical to the canon Holmes. As a Victorian, he is ever the gentleman because that's how upper crust men were raised in those times. The mask of gentlemanly-ness is simply hiding what is exposed in the modern version.

I do think one thing that's different is that Sherlock is much more acutely aware of his alone-ness in the modern day. That's not to say he minds it (he doesn't). This could probably be attributed to the popularization of the "Bohemian" lifestyle at the time. People who considered themselves "Bohemians" could be as antisocial as they liked. Nowadays if a moderately young person doesn't want to get out and party people think there's something wrong with them, just as John thinks its peculiar at first that Sherlock has no boyfriend or girlfriend. His lack of one is a throwback to his days as a Victorian.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initials SH and proud owner of a viola named Watson.

Potential flatmates should know the worst about each other.

It's a three patch problem.

I didn't know; I saw.
 

September 23, 2012 8:12 am  #14


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

Bravo on the whole of your post, but I especially want to comment on this part :

Smoggy_London_Air wrote:

................. Nowadays if a moderately young person doesn't want to get out and party people think there's something wrong with them, just as John thinks its peculiar at first that Sherlock has no boyfriend or girlfriend. His lack of one is a throwback to his days as a Victorian.

Absolutely explains much of what 'intrigues/baffles' a large section of the fandom. Just because he prefers his own company & just because he has no interest in sex it doesn't mean there is ANYTHING wrong with him at all!

With so many people trying to psychoanalyse these days, more commonly people cannot understand that some individuals LIKE to be alone for the most part. They think 'oh he must have some other disorder/affliction mentally or he's shying away because of some trauma'.
They cannot fathom that some people do NOT have sexual urges of any persuasion. Again, they believe there MUST be a reason for this.

'Modern medicine' or more precisely, modern psychiatric medicine has been grasped by the masses (via online sources & the media)  and used to 'explain' every trait that is not common in society.

To hell with the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE these people are exquisite individuals who leave a unique mark on society.
At the rate this over-analysis & self diagnosis is going, there will NEVER be another Einstein, Da Vinci or the like. Because good old 'well meaning' society will have drugged them, labelled them & popped them into a 'support group' environment & killed any individuality they ever had.

Luckily, Sherlock Holmes is immune to this nonsense, his character is set & those who choose to preserve it, as Moftiss are doing are doing future generations a great service.

*steps off soap box*


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

September 23, 2012 7:59 pm  #15


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

kazza474 wrote:

To hell with the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE these people are exquisite individuals who leave a unique mark on society.
At the rate this over-analysis & self diagnosis is going, there will NEVER be another Einstein, Da Vinci or the like. Because good old 'well meaning' society will have drugged them, labelled them & popped them into a 'support group' environment & killed any individuality they ever had.

I would love to see adult Sherlock stuck in a support group for anything, but it's lucky that he was never psychoanalyzed as a kid (that we know of) because you're right, he would have been labeled and medicated out of his mind.

I'd like to add Van Gogh to that list. He was never medicated, and he was one of the most brilliant as well as well as severely bipolar people in modern artistic memory. I don't believe he would have created the great art that he did had he been on lithium or some other drug. Sure, he would have been happier, but artistic impulses often come from despair, not happiness.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initials SH and proud owner of a viola named Watson.

Potential flatmates should know the worst about each other.

It's a three patch problem.

I didn't know; I saw.
 

September 23, 2012 11:02 pm  #16


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

well  I  think the writers wanted to SHOW  how  decisive and cunning Sherlock  can be--  In the cannon,  he DID offend,  sometimes,  but He always explained why.   In  the tv versions,  (All of them)  we the viewers get to see that.  I think that's the difference,  from page to screen.   And I like it.   I  do see SOME  differences,  but I can't really explain it  with   BBC SHERLOCK  since they don't really do a full canon story.   But with Jeremy Brett's versions,  I  did see a difference there.   Jeremy's portrayal of Holmes,  for instance in the BOSCOMBE VALLEY MYSTERY  and  THE MUSGRAVE RITUAL stories,  were just a bit  lighter in tone,  than the canon.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SHERLOCK!!!!!!
 

September 24, 2012 2:32 am  #17


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

kazza474 wrote:

'Modern medicine' or more precisely, modern psychiatric medicine has been grasped by the masses (via online sources & the media)  and used to 'explain' every trait that is not common in society.

To hell with the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE these people are exquisite individuals who leave a unique mark on society.
At the rate this over-analysis & self diagnosis is going, there will NEVER be another Einstein, Da Vinci or the like. Because good old 'well meaning' society will have drugged them, labelled them & popped them into a 'support group' environment & killed any individuality they ever had.

*steps off soap box*

I think I may love you, Kazza. Wholeheartedly agree with all of the above.

Edit: Took out additional sentence as it really was totally OT

Last edited by Wholocked (September 24, 2012 2:32 am)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dislike being outnumbered. It makes for too much stupid in the room

 

September 24, 2012 7:06 am  #18


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

I agree also about the over medicating business. Not to say that some people don't need to take medication, of course they do, for themselves and for others. However, and this is a big however, the routine medicating of children from a very young age with Ritalin for hyperactivity is a practice of which I strongly disapprove. Impulsiveness and high levels of energy are not necessarily bad traits in a person. There are a tremendous number of extraordinary individuals who show these traits who do the most extraordinary things.

To be perfectly honest, extreme sports of all kinds would be nowhere without them and the great explorer and adventurer Sir Rannulph Fiennes is a prime example (his autobiography is entitled 'Mad, Bad and Dangerous to Know'). The creative arts would also be decimated without such individuals of genius who are different from the norm e.g Sylvia Plath, Tolstoy and Ernest Hemingway. Politics too have seen such extraordinary people; those who need little sleep, for instance, such as Sir Winston Churchill and Abraham Lincoln. Science also hs been littered with such folk e.g. Sir Isaac Newton.

Case made m'lud.

Last edited by Davina (September 24, 2012 7:08 am)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

September 24, 2012 12:39 pm  #19


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

I completely agree with you that overmedication, especially in the case of hyperactive children is not only unnecessary in many cases, but can actually be dangerous and harmful to the child's health. I find this a highly disturbing development.
That said, I find some of the comments in this thread almost as disturbing, and extremely presumptuous.
I see no need to glorify ACD's time (or any time past) as the good old days before everyone was in therapy.
Sure, in Victorian times, if you were wealthy, born into the right class of society and male, you had a significant freedom of lifestyle (although the friends of Oscar Wilde might tell you otherwise). As the phrase goes, you are not mad if you're rich, you are simply eccentric.
But if you had the misfortune to be anything else, any small sign of mental instability would most likely see you locked up, deprived of all your human rights and completely disregarded socially. "Hysteria" was a common diagnosis (mostly for women) for anything from depression to simply showing sexual interest. Children with disabilities were largely regarded as shameful, as a punishment for a sinful life. Young men were not allowed to be sensitive or weak, and corporal punishment was often the therapy of choice.
Being "different" was absolutely not more acceptable than it is now, and general ignorance of psychology was quite often the cause.

I am not saying everything is perfect now, but I refuse to condemn modern psychology or sociology and how far they have come in the last century or so.

Last edited by hypergreenfrog (September 24, 2012 12:39 pm)


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"There is no such word as 'impossible' in my dictionary. In fact, everything between 'herring' and 'marmalade' seems to be missing." Dirk Gently

Finally, I have made it to Cipher Expert :-))))) (8.8.2012)
 

September 24, 2012 12:58 pm  #20


Re: Sherlock's arsemanship

There will always be the 'haves' and the 'have nots' Hyper. There will always be the oppressed and the exalted. That is simply a part of nature, in all species.
Certainly, mankind has had to learn some things by trial and error. And yes, things done back a few centuries are now considered 'cruel' or horrid. But that was the best way they knew how to deal with things. I'm not saying they were right or wrong, they had not evolved medicine to a high enough degree to understand what we understand now. Recall also with those examples you gave that many other aspects of life then would these days be considered appalling.
So to compare then & now is really an apples & oranges scenario.

Psychiatric and Psychological practices these days COULD  be brilliant, but far too often they spend so much time & effort labelling people that they forget that they are people.
There are glimpses of brilliance where they get it right but moreover from my perspective, our species has been weakened mentally. Especially in the Western world. I'll leave it there.
JMHO


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum