BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



August 28, 2012 9:46 am  #1


John questioned by his psychologist

I just watched TRF for the nth time-- at least the 15th, not sure, I lost count a long time ago. What do you think the "stuff" is, here in this questioning?

There's stuff that you wanted to say, but didn't say it.
Yeah.
Say it now.
No. I'm sorry. I can't.


Wanted to say? What? When? To whom? Anyone?

 

August 28, 2012 9:54 am  #2


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

Could it be that John went to his therapist because he wanted to speak to someone not personally connected to Sherlock's death and then found he wasn't able to talk to her simply because she was an outsider? Maybe he told her on the phone when making the appointment that there were things he wanted to tell her and to which she's referring here. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 28, 2012 10:02 am  #3


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

SusiGo wrote:

Could it be that John went to his therapist because he wanted to speak to someone not personally connected to Sherlock's death and then found he wasn't able to talk to her simply because she was an outsider? Maybe he told her on the phone when making the appointment that there were things he wanted to tell her and to which she's referring here. 

"Stuff you wanted to say"--  when, when Sherlock was still alive, and John still had time to say it? When John called for his psychology appointment, thinking maybe he just needed to talk to someone, anyone? But then she goes on to say "but didn't say it."  To me, this lends credence to at least the idea that she means "say to Sherlock".

I realize we'll never know. Sigh.

     Thread Starter
 

August 28, 2012 10:16 am  #4


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

Ah, I see what you mean. I didn't think about it that way but you can interpret it as "things he didn't say to Sherlock". However, I think it doesn't really fit with what John's comments at the grave.

Some things he says because he thinks Sherlock to be dead (Don't be dead/Stop this, etc.). As for the others ("I was so alone and I owe you so much.", etc.) - do you think he wished to say this while Sherlock was alive but didn't? I can't really imagine that although it that's what he feels. But Sherlock doesn't exactly invite such confessions. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 28, 2012 10:17 am  #5


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

I think it refers to what John has bottled up inside him regarding Sherlock's suicide but also his other unresolved issues with trust and his experiences in Afghanistan. She also asks him, 'Why now? It's been 18 months.' She is encouraging him to talk about his emotions, feelings, grief etc. this is 'the stuff'. Also things he may have wished to say to Sherlock when he was alive, especially before he jumped from the roof, that he didn't. In addition he may also feel that if he had said more, differently, then Sherlock would not have committed suicide.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

August 28, 2012 12:20 pm  #6


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

She's asking about things he never said to Sherlock when he was alive and asking him if he'd like to take the opportunity to say them now, aloud, to her. It's a pretty standard line for a grief counsellor to go down.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dislike being outnumbered. It makes for too much stupid in the room

 

August 28, 2012 12:41 pm  #7


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

SusiGo wrote:

Ah, I see what you mean. I didn't think about it that way but you can interpret it as "things he didn't say to Sherlock". However, I think it doesn't really fit with what John's comments at the grave.
Some things he says because he thinks Sherlock to be dead (Don't be dead/Stop this, etc.). As for the others ("I was so alone and I owe you so much.", etc.) - do you think he wished to say this while Sherlock was alive but didn't? I can't really imagine that although it that's what he feels. But Sherlock doesn't exactly invite such confessions. 

Exactly. Sherlock doesn't do that touchy-feely true confessions stuff, even when pressed to the wall, really, as he was in the AM scene in Hounds. While they were together, John couldn't shut up about how much he admired him and was in awe of him and his skills, but about the friendship/flatmate/companion/domestic thing, I think that was extremely awkward between them. Sherlock is not one for having a pint with his mates at the pub or going out golfing for an afternoon or even going to the movies to see the latest Batman flick, you know? He *does* have to eat, so sometimes it's "let's have dinner" or "there's a Chinese place down the street that stays open late", but that's about it. " I was so alone, and I owe you so much"?  That would have been a good start for John and what he "should have said," while Sherlock was still with him. So many people have gone through this-- losing a loved one and only then thinking of all the things left unsaid and undone. I presume this is what the psych lady was getting at.

     Thread Starter
 

August 28, 2012 12:43 pm  #8


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

Wholocked wrote:

She's asking about things he never said to Sherlock when he was alive and asking him if he'd like to take the opportunity to say them now, aloud, to her. It's a pretty standard line for a grief counselor to go down.

Is it? Thanks, I didn't know that. If so, then that confirms what I was thinking. No wonder he couldn't say it--  good god, that'd be real hard. Real hard.

     Thread Starter
 

August 28, 2012 12:48 pm  #9


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

Davina wrote:

In addition he may also feel that if he had said more, differently, then Sherlock would not have committed suicide.

I am a suicide survivor, or however you want to say it, since one of my older sisters, who was my 2nd mom, killed herself almost 15 years ago. I was the one who found her body, both after her 1st unsuccessful attempt (in my house!) and in her later successful attempt in her house. And I still have regrets about not having it out with her during that year between the two incidents. I know down deep that I probably could not have a changed a thing that happened, but still.... one always wonders. And the anger! Oh, talk about burning you to a crisp. So I do have some insight in what John would be going through. Poor man.

     Thread Starter
 

August 28, 2012 12:54 pm  #10


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

Wholocked, thanks for the explanation, didn't know that but it makes sense. Adds just another level to his words in the cemetery.

Ancientsgate, I am very sorry to hear this. Two years ago a friend of mine committed suicide. I not angry with her because I could understand her decision although I deeply regret losing her and wish so often I could see her again if only once. But the feelings of the survivors of course depend on the situation.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 28, 2012 1:20 pm  #11


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

SusiGo wrote:

Ancientsgate, I am very sorry to hear this. Two years ago a friend of mine committed suicide. I not angry with her because I could understand her decision although I deeply regret losing her and wish so often I could see her again if only once. But the feelings of the survivors of course depend on the situation.

Yes, each situation is unique. When it's a family member, especially a parent (or in my case, a sibling who took the role of a parent throughout most of my life), it's pretty wrenching. The anger in my case came from her lying to me, lying to her psychiatrist, refusing to take her meds (none of which I realized until after her death), and her knowing full well that it would be me who would find her. I have to remind myself that what she did was not about me and my needs, but still and all, dealing with it is hard for those left behind, no matter the circumstances. My condolences about your friend. *hugs*

     Thread Starter
 

August 29, 2012 1:36 pm  #12


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

It's so hard to tell people how you really feel and think about them. I mean, it's hard anyway, with normal people, I should imagine it would be near impossible with Sherlock. Especially if you are just friends or family, the opportunity rarely arises when you can sit down with them quietly and say "I really appreciate you, admire you, respect you, love you (platonically), and you mean so much to me." It just doesn't happen.

So yeah, there would probably be tons of that stuff John thought and felt about Sherlock that he never got the chance to tell him (but probably never would have told him, and probably won't even when he come back). I mean, I'm not talking about Johnlock "oh my God I love you and want to be with you forever and get married" type stuff...just every day best friend kind of stuff.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Independent OSAJ Affiliate

 

August 29, 2012 5:37 pm  #13


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I'm curious.  What do people think is the timing of John's appointment with the therapist in TRF.  Does it occur soon after Sherlock's fall but before the graveyard scene?  What do people think she means when she says, "It's been 18 months...."

My take on this is that John, as we see him at the beginning of TRF, is with her soon after he's witnessed the fall - maybe within a few days of it.  Most likely just before the grave scene. The 18 months refers to the last time he was in her office at the beginning of aSiP - mainly because he had no more need of a therapist after meeting Sherlock and getting excitment back in his life.  All the events leading up to the fall took place 3 months earlier, making most of TRF a 3 month ago flash-back.

Also, I feel that John just couldn't unburden his thoughts on the what the loss of Sherlock meant to him personally to the therapist.  He was struggling to hold himself together as it was and just couldn't do it.  It was just too damn personal (besides, he has some trust issues, doesn't he, plus the fact that he knows Mycroft can get his hands on his records should he be so inclined).  Only at the grave when he was alone was able to speak from his heart.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

 

August 29, 2012 6:01 pm  #14


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

I absolutely agree with you regarding the chronology of events.

At the grave he speaks from his heart and I guess that maybe he realises only now what Sherlock meant to him. He enjoyed their time together but only when he finds himself alone once again he understands how profoundly Sherlock changed his life.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 29, 2012 6:55 pm  #15


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

The 18 months you can also clearly see in his blog.
In Dec. and Jan. he wrote something like:"Look Ella, I'm writing my blog" and "Nothing happens to me"
Then you have entrys until tjhe last one in June the next year: "He was my best friend and I'll always believe in him."

But I don`t really remember if was to his therapist before or after the graveyard scene.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 29, 2012 8:41 pm  #16


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

SusiGo wrote:

I absolutely agree with you regarding the chronology of events.

At the grave he speaks from his heart and I guess that maybe he realises only now what Sherlock meant to him. He enjoyed their time together but only when he finds himself alone once again he understands how profoundly Sherlock changed his life.

I agree as well, Keepers Price, on all counts.

     Thread Starter
 

August 29, 2012 8:54 pm  #17


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

He is speaking to his therapist at the start of the episode. Then the story flips back in time. Once Sherlock has committed suicide John is shown at the therapist's, which is the same occasion as is shown at the start of the episode, so we have caught up. Following that is when we see John and Mrs. Hudson travel to the graveyard. Finally John makes his speech at the graveside and Sherlock is shown in the distance, watching.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

August 29, 2012 8:59 pm  #18


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

You're right Davina. Thanks for dedusting the candelabra in my mind palace.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 30, 2012 7:43 am  #19


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

Lol. It's dusting. Dedusting would be...I don't know...putting the dust back on it? 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

August 30, 2012 7:55 am  #20


Re: John questioned by his psychologist

Lol. Fine dictionary I'm having here!!    It also offers "dust collecting", but that sounded even more strange to me.... 

"Any hobbies?"  "Oh, well... I've been collecting dust for twenty years now. Wanna see?"

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=&search=entstauben

Last edited by Mattlocked (August 30, 2012 7:56 am)


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum