BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock Fic Recs *warning

Harriet · December 15, 2014 9:26 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Just one question: why are words like penis or vagina wrong? ...

I also have no big problem with these words. Maybe they sound too clinical / clean to some readers?

silverblaze · December 15, 2014 9:33 pm

For me it's just the name for the thing. But I'm not a native speaker so it's possible that I missed out on connotations and all that.

I'm really curious of the reasoning behind it. Because I consider euphemisms and vague flowery language as bad writing. Sex scenes tend to be full of that (50 Shades anyone?). So if anyone understands, please enlighten me.

Vhanja · December 15, 2014 9:34 pm

I laughed so hard I got tears in my eyes. Thank you for this!

SusiGo · December 15, 2014 9:36 pm

I am completely sane, Solar. No idea what you are talking about.

SolarSystem · December 15, 2014 9:37 pm

It's actually quite telling that you claim to be having no idea what I'm talking about, Susi.

ancientsgate · December 15, 2014 9:38 pm

Oh! As someone who's done a lot of beta reading in the past, the one that says "Is this supposed to be in present or past tense?" rang true for me. Pet peeve, switching tenses in the same paragraph, and God forbid someone does it in the same sentence!

Both of these badfic bingo things are really good. But the thing is, for amateur writers, you have to start somewhere. It's easy to discourage wannabe writers with lists like these because they sit and wonder how in hell they'll ever write anything decent. But everyone has to start somewhere, make loads of mistakes (or poor judgement calls), and hopefully learn from doing things wrong, just so they can eventually do things (more) right. Writing is HARD.

Harriet · December 15, 2014 9:40 pm

I reckon the mostly used expressions are cock and dick, which are both neither euphemisms/flowery language nor overly gross, something between slang and vulgar expression.

ancientsgate · December 15, 2014 9:43 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Oh, wow, that's fantastic.

Just one question: why are words like penis or vagina wrong? What else are you supposed to call them! Sticky banana of love?

No one calls a penis a penis or a vagina a vagina unless they're doctors; euphemisms are always more appropriate in casual erotic fan fic, simply because they just sound more like how people really talk and think. The authors can overdo anything, however, so in a longer story, it can be a challenge to find different ways to phrase things. After an author has used the cock word 19 times in the same 10 minutes of reading, I'm pretty done with that particular word, lol.

ancientsgate · December 15, 2014 9:48 pm

Harriet wrote:
silverblaze wrote:
Just one question: why are words like penis or vagina wrong? ...
I also have no big problem with these words. Maybe they sound too clinical / clean to some readers?

Too formal, usually. OTOH, if an author always uses them, and if she can make her readers believe that her characters would always use them, then it could work. As native English-speakers, we don't use the penis or vagina words unless we're a) teaching a child the correct anatomical names for things or b) describing our symptoms to our doctors, or perhaps c) studying anatomy and physiology in school. No guy is going to stand in a locker room at his gym and look down at himself and wonder, "What in hell is that thing growing on the end of my penis?" He just isn't.

Harriet · December 15, 2014 9:53 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
...
Both of these badfic bingo things are really good. But the thing is, for amateur writers, you have to start somewhere. It's easy to discourage wannabe writers with lists like these because they sit and wonder how in hell they'll ever write anything decent. But everyone has to start somewhere, make loads of mistakes (or poor judgement calls), and hopefully learn from doing things wrong, just so they can eventually do things (more) right. Writing is HARD.

Right. On the other hand, things like these might be useful to beginners, naming typical atrocities in a playful way. It might help them avoid such things right from the start.

ancientsgate · December 15, 2014 9:55 pm

silverblaze wrote:
For me it's just the name for the thing. But I'm not a native speaker so it's possible that I missed out on connotations and all that. I'm really curious of the reasoning behind it. Because I consider euphemisms and vague flowery language as bad writing. Sex scenes tend to be full of that (50 Shades anyone?). So if anyone understands, please enlighten me.

I have no personal experience with it, so I can't say for sure, but I imagine a non-native speaker wouldn't "hear" why penis and vagina sound too stilted and formal for casual conversation and narration in fan fic. As you say, those *are* the legit names for those things, after all. But surely other languages have less-formal names for body parts, words that would show up in works of fiction but that wouldn't fly in polite company or at the doctor's office. As a beta reader, I was always concerned with making dialogue flow, and making the story as a whole read smoothly and realistically. A young man, speaking to his male lover, isn't going to call that oh-so-interesting body part they both have as a "penis". Not unless he wants to get laughed out of bed. "Ooooh, baby, yeah, do that with your penis again, it's so goooooood!" Ah, no......

Harriet · December 15, 2014 9:55 pm

I know people here who use "penis" and the like in daily life. formal or not, medical or not. Matter of personal style. Others say Willy, btw

Last edited by Harriet (December 15, 2014 10:01 pm)

ancientsgate · December 15, 2014 10:01 pm

Harriet wrote:
Right. On the other hand, things like these might be useful to beginners, naming typical atrocities in a playful way. It might help them avoid such things right from the start.

There are loads of people who call themselves writers who wouldn't even understand what half of the things on those charts are even talking about-- they're too young/naive/inexperienced/untaught and/or they just don't give a crap about making it right. Some will see the lists but not see themselves and their own writing in them, even though they probably should.

My experience is that many newbie writers are scared of their own shadows, and those lists and ones like them WOULD scare them off. We who are older and consider ourselves more seasoned think the lists are funny, but if you were 16 or 20 and sincerely wanted to write but never had before, they could be very intimidating. The absolute WORST thing anyone wants (most anyone, anyway, not like the people I talked about in my first paragraph here) is to get laughed at.

ancientsgate · December 15, 2014 10:02 pm

Harriet wrote:
I know people here who use "penis" and the like in daily life. formal or not, medical or not. Matter of personal style. Others say Willy, btw

Don't you live in Germany? What in hell are people there using the penis word for? *smile*

SusiGo · December 15, 2014 10:09 pm

I live in Germany, too. And, yes, we sometimes use the word when we do not want to get either vulgar or use a childish euphemism or minimisation. Maybe the connotations are slightly different from American usage.

ancientsgate · December 15, 2014 10:26 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I live in Germany, too. And, yes, we sometimes use the word when we do not want to get either vulgar or use a childish euphemism or minimisation. Maybe the connotations are slightly different from American usage.

That's interesting, that an English word for a body part has slipped into usage in a non-English-speaking country. I know a lot of English techie words are the same in Japanese, French, etc, but penis? I never knew.

Harriet · December 15, 2014 10:31 pm

It's not an English word at all, that might be the reason

ancientsgate · December 15, 2014 10:41 pm

Harriet wrote:
It's not an English word at all, that might be the reason

Many English words were not originally English words. But I presume other languages have their own word for penis, penis the anatomical part.

SusiGo · December 15, 2014 10:44 pm

Because it is a Latin term, lots of languages use it, for example German and French.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 15, 2014 10:48 pm)

silverblaze · December 15, 2014 10:57 pm

Nope, penis in Dutch is penis. I think it's a Latin word and it crept into the Germanic languages a very long time ago. Could also be Greek, I'm not an expert on classic languages. It's not an English loan word as far as I can tell. AG, our languages are related, in case you were wondering, there are more words that are similar or the same. It's a bit more obvious with English English though.

I think we use it in the same way Susi describes: the normal word for the thing. So apparently it's different in English. What's the normal word in English then? I can think of a few words, but they either sound rude or too childish. Penis seemed to me the most neutral one.