BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » New thoughts on why/why not & who helped &where is Moriarty's body

kazza474 · July 31, 2012 1:56 pm

Sherlock spent a lot of time encouraging John to 'spread the word' that he was a fake.

WHY? Because he wanted people to believe he was 'bad'; wanted them all to write him off as evil. He wanted them to believe the Rich Brook story rather than the truth. This would stop people investigating into his death too much; his suicide after being exposed would have been easy to understand once the 'fake' title was accepted.

Moriarty's body would have been found by the authorities. There is nothing to suggest it wasn't/wouldn't be.

WHY? This would be crucial in Sherlock's plan to get people to accept his suicide & his fakeness as a detective. Why go to all the trouble of convincing John, getting him to spread the word & then feigning suicide otherwise? It would show a total breakdown of Sherlock's character; him forcing Moriarty to shoot himself.

Did Mycroft help Sherlock & if so how?
I don't think he was asked to help until after Sherlock 'died' & he wanted funds & help from Mycroft. This would parallel the canon. And there is no reason for it to be otherwise especially based on my previous thoughts above.

To me these are common sense things I had not thought through earlier. But in revising things, I have decided I need to look at everything that we KNOW happened & more importantly look at the conclusions & deductions & scrutinise HOW they were reached.

I based the 'disappearance' of Moriarty's body on something NOT in that episode, a fatal error. I've seen others make that kind of error lately, making assumptions & deductions on what we discovered AFTERWARDS or from other related sources. Quite a large amount of deducing has happened since the show's ending of Series 2; but how much is based on the RIGHT clues?

hmm

Lupin · July 31, 2012 3:45 pm

I thought in The Final Problem, Sherlock enlisted Mycroft as the driver of the hansom cab that took Watson to Victoria Station. This was toward the beginning of the story.

From The Final Problem:

Sherlock: "Did you find your brougham?"

Watson: "Yes, it was waiting."

Sherlock: "Did you recognize your coachman?"

Watson: "No."

Sherlock: "It was my brother Mycroft. It is an advantage to get about in such a case without taking a mercenary into your confidence. But we must plan what we are to do about Moriarty now."

I agree with the logic that something must have happened to Moriarty's body. It would be very hard to "resurrect" Sherlock if Moriarty's death were attributed to murder by him. I think Molly Hooper had a hand in this, since she's a mortician and could easily store away the body and have it buried in Sherlock's grave, for instance. I think that would be an amazingly symbolic death of Sherlock's foil and darker side.

Note in the canon that Moriarty's body was never recovered either from the Fall. It was the pattern of the dirt on top of the falls that revealed their ends. As Watson remarks, "...deep down in that dreadful cauldron of swirling water and seething foam, will lie for all time the most dangerous criminal and the foremost champion of the law of their generation."

Last edited by Lupin (July 31, 2012 4:26 pm)

Davina · July 31, 2012 5:21 pm

Who else do we know who has been involved with the 'disposal' of dead bodies? What about the acquisition of all those bodies for the flight of the dead? Mycroft.

Arya · July 31, 2012 6:24 pm

But isn't he not doing the flights of the dead anymore?

Davina · July 31, 2012 6:55 pm

He isn't but it shows that he and his minions are perfectly capable of both obtaining and disposing of dead bodies as necessary. Let's face it disposing of all those bodies from the plane must have been a more difficult task than a fairly routine clean-up on the roof.

Last edited by Davina (July 31, 2012 6:55 pm)

veecee · July 31, 2012 7:07 pm

But for Mycroft or Molly to be ready to get rid of Moriarty's body fast enough, wouldn't they and Sherlock have to know ahead of time that Moriarty was going to kiil himself, or die, at least? Clearly, Sherlock was shocked by the suicide. I know he can act, but he didn't have anyone to act for up there.

Lupin · July 31, 2012 7:11 pm

My thought is that Holmes intended to kill Moriarty from the beginning and Molly would help conceal the body in the hospital till either Mycroft's men or he could dispose of it permanently later. I believe Moriarty's death was planned by Holmes but not that it occurred by suicide.

Last edited by Lupin (July 31, 2012 7:11 pm)

kazza474 · August 1, 2012 6:43 am

No, No,No, No ,No!

You have all missed what I said, "Moriarty's body would have been found by the authorities. There is nothing to suggest it wasn't/wouldn't be."

It was crucial to this whole build up of Sherlcok agreeing that he was a fake - Moriarty's body needed to be found by the authorities to show what lengths of despair Sherlock drove Moriarty to after Moriarty 'outed' Sherlock for being a fraud. The suicide would have been detected in the forensics, so there would be no question of Sherlock being a murderer, but wouldnt a person who drove someone else to the point of suicide be the worst kind of person there could be?!
Having driven Moriarty to take his own life in the confrontation, Sherlock completely unravelled also & threw himself to HIS death. This would be swallowed up by the media AND the public so easily, there would be NO need for a lengthy investigation & once the fuss died down, Sherlock would be able to operate undercover more freely.

So there is NO NEED for any cover up, hiding the body or anything. In fact Sherlock would not have expected there to be a body on the roof.

Lupin · August 1, 2012 6:53 am

I think it's a plausible idea though I disagree about the suicide conclusion being reached by the police. Sherlock jumped from the roof on which Moriarty's body would be found. This puts Sherlock on the roof at the time of Moriarty's death.

Moriarty swallows the gun to kill himself. This could just as easily be seen as an execution Sherlock forced on Richard Brook to look like a suicide. Suicide with a gun is often deduced from the burn mark on the victim because the gun would have had to have been held at point blank range to get the burn mark of the gunpowder coming out. It would also be concluded by testing for gunpowder residue on Moriarty's clothes. Given the proximity of Sherlock when Moriarty shot himself, however, I would not be surprised if his coat tested positive for gunpowder residue as well. It would be difficult to argue which narrative of what happened is accurate given the evidence. There were no witnesses and the gunshot would have been heard while Sherlock was on the roof if they put the chronology of events together.

In addition, the reporter would testify that Sherlock had tried to attack Richard Brook in her apartment, with Richard Brook pleading for Sherlock not to hurt him, and that he was angry and unstable at the time. She would also testify that Richard Brook was in no way suicidal when she interviewed him.

Last edited by Lupin (August 1, 2012 6:56 am)

kazza474 · August 1, 2012 7:11 am

No he wasn't suicidal when he was interviewed, but after a night of being harrassed by Sherlock & a subsquent meeting on the rooftop, he DID in fact turn suicidal for one reason or another.
Now I believe from watching the confrontation, that he was completely insane at the end.
BUT we're talking about how the police/media would see things.
In reality I guess, it is neither here nor there really as to whether it is ruled suicide or forced suicide, so maybe we don't need that debate at all. Again it's a point that can be bandied back & forth.
It still paints Sherlock as a naughty little liar. Which is what is needed to happen.
As for the reporter, one hopes the authorities over there have learnt lessons on the validity of what their media say,lol.

Lupin · August 1, 2012 8:03 am

Yes, I agree, and that's the image he wanted John to portray him as at the end. I think there's a significance in Sherlock looking back to Moriarty's dead body while talking to John... and yes, Moriarty was insane. That's a bit of a contrast to how his character comes across in The Great Game, in my opinion.

s.he · August 1, 2012 10:27 pm

Lupin wrote:
... ... and have it buried in Sherlock's grave, for instance. I think that would be an amazingly symbolic death of Sherlock's foil and darker side.

Lol... nice idea, but I'm afraid, such a cynical and cruel thing Sherlock wouldn't do to his friend after all. Remember the heartbreaking scene on the graveyard and try to imagine John's speaking to the remains of the arch-enemy... really beastly. Apart from that I think, Mycroft has cleaned up the mess.

Lupin · August 1, 2012 10:31 pm

I see what you mean but Sherlock's character is extremely complex and to disregard the idea based on what you think he would or wouldn't do doesn't completely dismiss the idea in my mind.

kazza474 · August 2, 2012 12:00 pm

Lupin wrote:
..... and yes, Moriarty was insane. That's a bit of a contrast to how his character comes across in The Great Game, in my opinion.

Really? He threatened to blow up innocent people just so he could 'play' with Sherlock. That's pretty much in line with shooting himself to 'win' a game.
Insanity doesn't mean he can't think like a genius also.

Davina · August 2, 2012 1:27 pm

Indeed. Insanity and genius are not mutually exclusive in fact they are often closely associated with each other.

Mattlocked · August 2, 2012 2:00 pm

Davina wrote:
Indeed. Insanity and genius are not mutually exclusive in fact they are often closely associated with each other.

Just didn't know how to explain/translate my thoughts, but this hits the point.

Lupin · August 2, 2012 6:28 pm

Not that insanity and genius are mutually exclusive, just that part of Moriarty's character did not come out in The Great Game in my opinion. It isn't that they contradicted his character, more thaty they amended it in the second season. I just thought it was an issue of continuity.

Last edited by Lupin (August 2, 2012 6:29 pm)

Arya · August 2, 2012 11:51 pm

I get what you're saying, Lupin. His mood doesn't change enough in TGG. He keeps Sherlock playing the game too long.

I love the insanity and genius thought. It belongs in a movie or a book or something

Davina · August 3, 2012 7:29 am

Thinking about how little or how much his meed changes in the Great Game. He is off screen for the most part, except as Jim. The tension of the bomb victims is cranked a little more each time. You have the poor old blind lady being blown to smithereens along with others. Then you have him attach a bomb to a child. Finally he attaches a bomb to John. This is a clear turning of the screw.

He has shown himself to be utterly ruthless.

In the pool scene he starts off really quite menacingly charming, 'Back off dear'. Clearly enjoying 'the game': 'playing Jim from IT. Playing gay'. But snaps with that chilling, 'That's what people do'! He then shows himself to be unpredictable as well, ' I'm soooo changeable'.

This then continues directly into Series 2. When he backs off but with the undertone of psychopathic danger to his character,' I will skin you...I will turn you into shoes'. By this time we believe every word he says.

Last edited by Davina (August 3, 2012 7:30 am)

Lupin · August 3, 2012 5:19 pm

In the Great Game, Moriarty was prepared to kill Holmes and Watson then and there, saying he had fun with their little game but Holmes could not be allowed to continue. This implied that Moriarty was forward looking and that Holmes was an inconvenience or obstacle, which does not suggest suicidal.

Given that the series plays with time, however, and that there are large lapses in time within and between episodes, it's possible for Moriarty to have changed over this time to be more obsessed and insane. A precursor of this transition to me is in Scandal when Irene says Moriarty didn't ask for anything in return. In The Great Game, he was going to get a piece of the 30 million quid from the forged painting, suggesting he usually did get compensation for his services.