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July 24, 2012 7:18 am  #21


Re: Important scene at 221b

I think there might be a slight difference between Germany and Austria here actually, at least in professional context. I have noticed that Germans tend to use stronger language (not cursing, just a harsher tone) than us Austrians. Here, you would not say "Schwachsinn" and the like when critising a colleague's work, but I have heard it said repeatedly from Germans (not about my work, luckily ). I would say the same is true for the word "Idiot".
But that may also be just the people I work with, it's difficult to give an unbiased opinion here.
Regarding private context, I agree with Susi.


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"There is no such word as 'impossible' in my dictionary. In fact, everything between 'herring' and 'marmalade' seems to be missing." Dirk Gently

Finally, I have made it to Cipher Expert :-))))) (8.8.2012)
 

July 24, 2012 7:23 am  #22


Re: Important scene at 221b

Interesting point, Hypergreenfrog, but there's a difference between "Schwachsinn" (this is something you do) and "Schwachkopf" (something you are). IMO the second word would be far more insulting than the first. I really like such discussions  .

Last edited by SusiGo (July 24, 2012 7:23 am)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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July 24, 2012 9:24 am  #23


Re: Important scene at 221b

That's the advantage of having native speakers of both languages who have the other language as a second language. Goodness that sounds really complicated but I think you know what I mean. So from this we understand that Sherlock is not being terribly rude, just a bit rude, when he calls someone an 'idiot' in English.

Out of interest what other words or phrases would be used to express idiocy, stupidity or foolishness in German? We have some great ones in English, which I half expect to hear in Sherlock at some stage. Do you want me to tell you some?


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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July 25, 2012 2:29 am  #24


Re: Important scene at 221b

Ah, the Australian list for that would be bloody long!

Closeness of social relationship and context being the most crucial marks in judging an insult (or compliment) down under.

I got pretty beaten up once when protecting a patient in a brawl outside a pub. The nurse who patched me up later called me a 'wimp' when I squirmed, and I am still proud of that because he meant the opposite!

 

July 25, 2012 3:18 am  #25


Re: Important scene at 221b

I'm not really sure how this thread turned into a German thing.
I was posting about BBC Sherlock and the use of the word "stupid" & how some people don't understand the friendly sarcasm used. Obviously as that point was missed also, it now leads me to the question of how different people are seeing everything about this show.
hmm


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

July 25, 2012 3:30 am  #26


Re: Important scene at 221b

I  dislike the word stupid  and idiot  no matter what language it's said in.   However,  the writing in this series is spot on,  and I  understood  that Sherlock and John were just  bantering back and forth  with those words.   But Sherlock  was a bit off-ish  when he  tried to make everyone else see what he had figured out. He's done that in the future show.   He MUST  know that ohers don't think like he does;  so   why  did he get so  frustrated with them when they didn't?  Surely he could make allowances? 

I  think that is what Sherlock does,  for John.   He makes allowances for John,  and that's why John can get away with  putting Sherlock in his place when the need arises.   This  IS,  I must say,  the start of a wonderful friendship between him and John.


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SHERLOCK!!!!!!
 

July 25, 2012 3:53 am  #27


Re: Important scene at 221b

Why 'make allowances'? Isn't that a wasted gesture very much equal to the gesture of showing care for someone who may die if a puzzle isn't solved? It's not in Sherlock's character to make allowances.

And I don't see Sherlock 'allowing ' John to insult him (if that is what it is, which I doubt anyway). What's Sherlock going to do? Gag anyone who dares to speak against him? Punch them?
For heaven's sakes, Donovan says far more to insult Sherlock than anyone else; does he do anything to her? No,

John is comfortable enough to speak his mind to Sherlock; that is the relationship they have.
This "Sherlock allows John' this & that is carrying the character analysis thing a bit far don't you think? People are now over analysing this show & its characters to the point of the ridiculous.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

July 25, 2012 4:22 am  #28


Re: Important scene at 221b

kazza474 wrote:

People are now over analysing this show & its characters to the point of the ridiculous.

Thank God, some people here are above all that...


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!
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August 11, 2012 4:14 am  #29


Re: Important scene at 221b

kazza474 wrote:

Why 'make allowances'? Isn't that a wasted gesture very much equal to the gesture of showing care for someone who may die if a puzzle isn't solved? It's not in Sherlock's character to make allowances.

And I don't see Sherlock 'allowing ' John to insult him (if that is what it is, which I doubt anyway). What's Sherlock going to do? Gag anyone who dares to speak against him? Punch them?
For heaven's sakes, Donovan says far more to insult Sherlock than anyone else; does he do anything to her? No,

John is comfortable enough to speak his mind to Sherlock; that is the relationship they have.
This "Sherlock allows John' this & that is carrying the character analysis thing a bit far don't you think? People are now over analysing this show & its characters to the point of the ridiculous.

Just some thoughts. No theory here.

Allowing? If I'm not mistaken, Sherlock actually thinks it's amusing that John calls him an idiot, doesn't he?

I've found it interesting the way Sherlock basically ignores Donovan's insults. (He does react more obviously to Anderson, doesn't he?) On the one hand, he may think she is below his consideration. But on the other hand, I wouldn't say he does nothing. The comments on Donovan's and Anderson's evening together (her knees) was hardly nothing.

I wonder if Sherlock was treated as a "freak" during his childhood and adolescence, and he developed his responses then. Either he really doesn't care what people think, or he acts like he doesn't.

As for romanitcizing - it reminds me of wanting to see Spock from Star Trek finally reveal his emotions, which we're all "sure" he really wishes he could do.

 

August 11, 2012 8:45 pm  #30


Re: Important scene at 221b

oh, fie.   I just can't help thinking that since Sherlock is afraid to lose John's friendship and roommate-ism,  that he makes allowances for John because of it.  You're right, John has never told S to piss off.   I  love that!!   

Ok--  here's my take on  what that scene would have been written up as,  if John HAD  figured out what Sherlock was saying. 

Sherlock:  Don't you SEE  it?  Don't you all KNOW  what the word Rache  is? 
John:  You said it was Rachel,  but how does that help? 
Sherlock:  THINK!!   
John:  (Looking at the tab on the suitcase)  That's an email address...so....
Sherlock: What?  (he eyes John as if he's willing John to understand his line of thinking)
John: Rachel  is  a password,  is that what you're saying?
Sherlock: (jumping up and down)  YES!! 

Yeah.   And I wish that Donovan would stop calling him 'freak'

Oh, and as for John calling Sherlock an idiot--  Not really--  John was only remembering what Sherlock had said to him earlier,  and John was only repeating S's words back to S.   That's my take on that scene.  And in Hounds, Sherlock Said that John had an average mind, as opposed to a superior one.

Last edited by sherlockskitty (August 12, 2012 1:07 am)


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SHERLOCK!!!!!!
 

August 13, 2012 5:28 am  #31


Re: Important scene at 221b

I love the scene where John calls Sherlock an idiot. It, to me, signifies:
1. John sees Sherlock's weakness (being reckless to prove his intellectual superiority),  and is not afraid to call him out on it.
2. That puts them on equal footing as friends, as Sherlock is certainly not holding back.
3. It establishes the framework of the friendship- humor, banter, but frequently with serious edge, as well.
4. It shows instant comfort both characters feel with each other; the whole first episode illustrates that there is no "trying hard to be friends" with the two; they click. Difficulties, inevitably, come later.

Friendship is impossible without some sort of equality ; the "idiot" scenes ( both of them) make it clear why the friendship lasts.

Last edited by deerstalker (August 13, 2012 5:40 am)

 

August 13, 2012 6:16 am  #32


Re: Important scene at 221b

veecee wrote:

Just some thoughts. No theory here.

Allowing? If I'm not mistaken, Sherlock actually thinks it's amusing that John calls him an idiot, doesn't he?

I've found it interesting the way Sherlock basically ignores Donovan's insults. (He does react more obviously to Anderson, doesn't he?) On the one hand, he may think she is below his consideration. But on the other hand, I wouldn't say he does nothing. The comments on Donovan's and Anderson's evening together (her knees) was hardly nothing.

I wonder if Sherlock was treated as a "freak" during his childhood and adolescence, and he developed his responses then. Either he really doesn't care what people think, or he acts like he doesn't.

As for romanitcizing - it reminds me of wanting to see Spock from Star Trek finally reveal his emotions, which we're all "sure" he really wishes he could do.

You appear to have missed my point.
What I was saying was I see people here were saying how  'John gets away with insulting Sherlock, others do not' & making out as if Sherlock is some 'protected species' that no-one would dare to insult.
All I was saying was "no, the other characters aren't squealing fangirls who treat Sherlock as a god; they are believable characters who interact quite naturally with each other."
Anyone can insult Sherlock if they feel the urge. The fact that John does doesn't make him 'special' in Sherlock's eyes.
And mainly to Skitty I was saying "I don't believe Sherlock would ever make allowances for John so that he doesn't 'lose him' as a friend". Sherlock would never consider that a possibility. Hell I wouldn't either. They are adults after all.

As for being treated as a 'freak as a child'; I doubt Sherlock would have noticed. He was singled out during University as we have heard. Even there however, I doubt that ever affected him the way people here would think. I doubt it affected him at all.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

August 13, 2012 7:05 pm  #33


Re: Important scene at 221b

Like I said, just some thoughts.

 

August 13, 2012 8:41 pm  #34


Re: Important scene at 221b

I'm not entirely sure that as a child Sherlock would not have noticed being singled out or picked on. He is not completely surprised when Moriarty says that Carl Powers had to die because he had laughed at him. He also acts just a bit defensively when John praises him in ASiP and explains that most people tell him to piss off. He also cares enough about what Sebastian says about him at University to pretend that he spoke to the secretary to cover the fact that he deduced that he had been abroad etc. Looking at what we know of Sherlock's psychology does not preclude him being hurt by negative treatment by others when he was a child. This would explain many of the barriers he puts up between himself and others.

Last edited by Davina (August 13, 2012 8:54 pm)


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdq1pcLCUR1rs9hrro1_500.jpg
 

August 14, 2012 11:30 am  #35


Re: Important scene at 221b

Friendships are based on a mutual symbiosis between the two parties. Sherlock has always been intellectually superior to all and openly blunt about pointing it out. I don't think the bluntness is grounded in a desire to be rude, it is just part of his savant like/mildly autistic quality of not understanding or caring about human emotion or conventions. No one before Watson has ever gotten close to Sherlock because this quality of his was  hurtful, insulting and a successful deterrent to all average people.

John Watson shares Sherlock's adventure obsession and provides financial help as a roommate which makes him initially attractive to Sherlock. He has the emotional makeup and the real life experience to handle Sherlock's intellectual put downs so he is able to hang in when others have walked away. But the reason their friendship has grown is that Watson is the one person who combats Sherlock's insufferable touting of his intellectual superiority by balancing it out.

By calling Sherlock an idiot and correcting him at every opportunity with regards to Sherlock's poorly developed emotional and social skills Watson is saying to Sherlock: "Ok you are smarter than everyone else but no one likes you because you are equally stupid in matters requiring social sensitivity and grace." So while everyone else either runs away from Sherlock or kisses up to him in a fawning way, Watson provides a balancing symbiotic counterattack to Sherlock's intellectual sufferability and Sherlock finally has an equal, one worthy to be a friend.


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Disguise is always a self portrait
 

August 14, 2012 7:16 pm  #36


Re: Important scene at 221b

Davina  - I idon't think Sherlock was hurt or insulted by Sebastian's comments. I think he just took offense at the word "trick," and so turned it around on Sebastian, making him (Sebastian) look foolish. Doesn't John say something implying that?

SP - Yes, equals, but not the same, right?

 

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