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July 22, 2012 11:42 am  #1


Important scene at 221b

Meanwhile I read a bit from the mkhey homepage and it is really so interesting!
Especially e.g. she writing about that scene from Blind Banker, where he met his old schoolmate Sebastian
http://mkhey.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/sherlock-technique-part-xi-what-might-we-deduce-about-sherlocks-heart-interviews-scripts-and-backstory/

So today another scene came to my mind (while having a shower - omg, where does all this lead to??  ):

Recently I watched ASiP (again).
There was a scene where this time I really felt sorry for Sherlock. To me it was a sad scene. Didn't notice before.
I don't know if it's been posted here already; I picked you some pics.
It was short before he said "Look at you, you are so vacant!..."

At the beginning he had big fun because he found out the meaning of "Rachel". He was really happy and enthusiastic. Running around, smiling, he explained to the others, obviously thinking that they can follow him.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Mattlocked/ASiP1.jpg


But then all he earned was "?????????"

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Mattlocked/ASiP3.jpg


Then HE was obvioulsy wondering why they don't understand him:

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Mattlocked/ASiP2.jpg


And he tried to explain again, for him everything was so clear, so obvious.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Mattlocked/ASiP4.jpg


Rachel!  Rachel!  Don't you see??


http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Mattlocked/ASiP5.jpg


And when you look at his face - and listen to his voice - you see that he gets more and more desparate, despaired.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Mattlocked/ASiP6.jpg


http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Mattlocked/ASiP7.jpg


I mean, it's like having great fun e.g. with a movie or whatever and having your friends with you and nobody sees where the jokes are and why you are having so much fun.
Of course there also was "My god, how can all of them be so stupid they don't see??!"
But I don't think his reaction (the "famous" sentence following) was only arrogant. His enthusiasm stops at once. It may have been a kind of reaction for "self-protection", because I can imagine that he really, really felt lonesome at that moment. What he obviously did half of his life with everyone telling him to "piss off".

So I find this an important scene to learn something about him and why he is like he is.

Last edited by Mattlocked (July 22, 2012 11:47 am)


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

July 22, 2012 1:22 pm  #2


Re: Important scene at 221b

That scene, Mattlocked, sums up the state Sherlock has always been finding himself in.
No-one seems to understand him or is able to follow his thoughts - at least not as quickly as Sherlock would wish.
No-one can compete with his "massive intellect", as John states in TBB. And this intellect of his leads to his loneliness, especially as Sherlock doesn't refrain from calling other people idiots or making them look as such:

The police
http://up.picr.de/11245945bn.jpg


John
http://up.picr.de/11245959fo.jpg


But at the end of ASiP it comes to something very special.
The pattern of "Sherlock knows everything/ordinary people are idiots" is kind of broken by John:

http://up.picr.de/11245960qc.jpg


And the astounding thing is that Sherlock doesn't seem to be irritated by John – quite the opposite.

http://up.picr.de/11245961ta.jpg


It marks the beginning of something Sherlock has never experienced in his life before: not being told "to piss off"; there's the chance not to feel as lonesome as previously; the promising beginning of a wonderful friendship.


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!
http://up.picr.de/25572077rl.jpg



                                                                                                                  
 

July 22, 2012 1:22 pm  #3


Re: Important scene at 221b

Wow Mattlocked, brilliant analysis*. So his perceived arrogance/rude comments actually stem from frustration- not a new experience for him as you say.


* Apologies I caught myself sounding like Sherlock talking to Anderson it was unintentional please accept it as a genuine comment. 

I always wait with baited breath for mkhey to write something new, then reread, but you watch with that in mind and get more out of it. I must try to do the same in future.


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July 22, 2012 1:53 pm  #4


Re: Important scene at 221b

Jane, I watched it AND felt sad about him before reading the mkhey reports. I just remembered right now.
But you are right, reading mkhey you want to watch it all over again because you get so much more out of it then.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
     Thread Starter
 

July 22, 2012 3:50 pm  #5


Re: Important scene at 221b

Well done, Mattlocked. You don't only see, you observe .


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 22, 2012 6:52 pm  #6


Re: Important scene at 221b

I so nearly said that SusiGo! 

I feel for him quite often during the episodes and I think (now you have brought it into my head) that it is due to the subtleties of the acting (please don't think I'm trying to detract from the script, I'm certainly not). One that springs to mind is 'the speckled blonde' scene where John tells Sherlock that no one is reading his blog. Sherlock sort of moves his lips slightly, swallows and then turns and walks away. You almost have to watch it in slow motion to see that. Not as moving as the example you quoted, but you can see exactly what he is feeling and it all happens almost subliminally.

I read the latest mkhey again earlier today and followed some of the links to interviews. One of my absolute favourites.


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July 23, 2012 3:16 am  #7


Re: Important scene at 221b

I reckon part of Sherlock's fascination with John comes from the fact that John called him an idiot. I doubt many others have attacked him on his intellectual merits, usually the emotional / non-fitting-in issues are far more inviting for abuse (freak etc).

 

July 23, 2012 12:42 pm  #8


Re: Important scene at 221b

Wow, brilliant analysis guys. Can't really add much to that other than to say I love the bit when John calls him an idiot...just so perfect. That's why Sherlock likes him so much, he's not afraid to try and challenge Sherlock on an intellectual level rather than just misunderstanding him completely.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Independent OSAJ Affiliate

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July 23, 2012 1:11 pm  #9


Re: Important scene at 221b

Mattlocked wrote:

Of course there also was "My god, how can all of them be so stupid they don't see??!"
But I don't think his reaction (the "famous" sentence following) was only arrogant. His enthusiasm stops at once. It may have been a kind of reaction for "self-protection", because I can imagine that he really, really felt lonesome at that moment. What he obviously did half of his life with everyone telling him to "piss off".

So I find this an important scene to learn something about him and why he is like he is.

Lonesome?
Because the others aren't on his wavelength?
He thrives for that.
His enthusiasm stopped because it was wasted. He is very used to this situation, certainly not one to be interpreted with words like "self protection" and "lonesome'.

The tone of this scene is repeated over & over again through  the series.

The point of the scene with John calling Sherlock an idiot has, I believe been totally lost here also.
As illustrated by the pictures posted, look at the second and third ones ( first one is just co-incidence, probably quite a few times through this show that someone says someone else is an idiot). It's not used as an insult/used to hurt someone's feelings. In the one where Sherlock tells John "Because you're an idiot", he's just using a term that he has for people who do not observe what is in front of them.
In the second one again, John isn't insulting Sherlock at all. Sherlock asks why would he risk his life to prove he's cleverer? And THIS is the crucial part that you have all overlooked: he is simply using Sherlock's own words back to him to say 'I know where you are coming from; I know this isn't an insult in your speak and I know what it means".
It really shows that John understands where Sherlock is coming from & is ok with that. It has nothing to do with wanting to insult the other person. It's friendly sarcasm.
And with that I think I can see why it has been missed.
JMHO


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

July 23, 2012 1:48 pm  #10


Re: Important scene at 221b

kazza474 wrote:

Lonesome?
Because the others aren't on his wavelength?
He thrives for that.
His enthusiasm stopped because it was wasted. He is very used to this situation, certainly not one to be interpreted with words like "self protection" and "lonesome'.

The tone of this scene is repeated over & over again through  the series.

The point of the scene with John calling Sherlock an idiot has, I believe been totally lost here also.
As illustrated by the pictures posted, look at the second and third ones ( first one is just co-incidence, probably quite a few times through this show that someone says someone else is an idiot). It's not used as an insult/used to hurt someone's feelings. In the one where Sherlock tells John "Because you're an idiot", he's just using a term that he has for people who do not observe what is in front of them.
In the second one again, John isn't insulting Sherlock at all. Sherlock asks why would he risk his life to prove he's cleverer? And THIS is the crucial part that you have all overlooked: he is simply using Sherlock's own words back to him to say 'I know where you are coming from; I know this isn't an insult in your speak and I know what it means".
It really shows that John understands where Sherlock is coming from & is ok with that. It has nothing to do with wanting to insult the other person. It's friendly sarcasm.
And with that I think I can see why it has been missed.
JMHO

I think you are both right Mattlocked and Kazza, just putting the emphasis on different aspects.

I don't think anyone here missed the point that John used Sherlock's words back at him, to show he knows how it was meant in the first place. It is pretty obvious.
But that does not make Mattlocked's observation untrue. It just proves the point, really. John is the only one who has no problem fighting Sherlock at his own game, and that must hugely appeal to him.

About feeling lonely vs thriving on others' stupidity, I also think that both is true in Sherlock's case.

He likes feeling superior, likes solving the puzzle before the others could even start sorting out the pieces. But even someone like Sherlock's will need someone to acknowledge and appreciate his superiority every now and then, otherwise it will simply stop being fun.
Not sure how many of you have ever lived abroad without family, but if you have I am sure you know that frustrating feeling when a situation (something that's been said, something you see, a person's behaviour) is hilariously funny, but only in a certain cultural context, so nobody around you understands.
Now, I am aware that something like that can also happen at home, say with friends who don't understand Sherlock references.But when you're abroad, it happens a lot, virtually every day, and there is not one single person who understands, who can even begin to understand. It makes you feel incredibly lonely and isolated and at least for me, I never got used to the situation.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"There is no such word as 'impossible' in my dictionary. In fact, everything between 'herring' and 'marmalade' seems to be missing." Dirk Gently

Finally, I have made it to Cipher Expert :-))))) (8.8.2012)
 

July 23, 2012 2:04 pm  #11


Re: Important scene at 221b

Well I cannot see any 'fighting' going on in that delivery of the line; It's simply friendly sarcasm. But as I said, I can understand why that is being missed/overlooked in this forum. It's interpreted as fighting/nasty here all the time.

And the 'lonely' part. No, that is simply romanticising once again. For heaven's sake, "alone is what he has", not loneliness.
I'll leave it at that I think.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

July 23, 2012 3:53 pm  #12


Re: Important scene at 221b

Even Mycroft, who knows him better than anyone else describes him as 'lonely' and 'naive' in 'The Flight of The Dead' scene in SiB. I believe you don't laugh with someone like he has laughed with John over the two series without realising - or beginning to realise, that without that interaction you are (or have been) lonely.

The 'alone is what I have' comment is voiced very much at a time when he is preparing to do something that must be done alone. 'Alone protects me' follows from this. The involvement of others makes him vulnerable (and he knows that Moriarty is aware of this and will use it), hence his ploy to send John off on the wild goose chase, (Mrs Hudson dying). Also, John's presence would have made his plans unworkable I imagine.


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July 23, 2012 4:05 pm  #13


Re: Important scene at 221b

Ja, ja, I'm hopeless romantic, no need to tell me!! 
Maybe I was a bit "backwards-"influenced by the explanations at mkhey and the pic of his sad face when his schoolmate said "We hated him." But I still have the opinion, he sounded and looked so despaired in that scene I showed you. His laughing, his "Rachel!! Rachel!! Don't you see?"

Don't you see???? 

But I also have no doubt that he also enjoys being better in observation than everyone else!

Reg. "Idiot" - that's what we all are to him, the "normal, vacant people."
Don't remember what he exactly called John in Baskerville, but it was something similar and he imediately added :"Come on, you know what I mean!"

Last edited by Mattlocked (July 23, 2012 4:06 pm)


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
     Thread Starter
 

July 23, 2012 5:33 pm  #14


Re: Important scene at 221b

Just want to clarify something with our German/Austrian members. Is calling someone an idiot a big insult in German? My German tutor said that it is perceived as a stronger, bigger  insult than it is when used by people in English. Is this so? I know this is a cultural difference but this seemed a sensible place to bring it up since we have been discussing its use.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdq1pcLCUR1rs9hrro1_500.jpg
 

July 23, 2012 5:47 pm  #15


Re: Important scene at 221b

Well, I think it depends on the situation: if a good friend told me with a smile "You are an idiot" it wouldn't be so bad. However, if someone I didn't know or didn't know well called me that it would be definitely a stronger insult. All in all on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the strongest insult) I would place it somewhere in the middle.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 23, 2012 5:50 pm  #16


Re: Important scene at 221b

Yes, being called an idiot in German is quite a big insult - on the same level we find  "Schwachkopf" which means the same.
A lighter form of idiot would be "Depp" or "Dussel".


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!
http://up.picr.de/25572077rl.jpg



                                                                                                                  
 

July 23, 2012 5:58 pm  #17


Re: Important scene at 221b

And you may even intensify the insult by calling someone a "Vollidiot"  . I'm beginning to this.

Last edited by SusiGo (July 23, 2012 5:58 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 23, 2012 6:30 pm  #18


Re: Important scene at 221b

So how was idiot translated in the Deutsch version on TV? Did they just still use the word idiot?


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdq1pcLCUR1rs9hrro1_500.jpg
 

July 23, 2012 6:46 pm  #19


Re: Important scene at 221b

Good question, I've seen it so often in English that I hardly remember the German version. But I think they used the word idiot. Will have to look it up.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 23, 2012 7:11 pm  #20


Re: Important scene at 221b

Ah! You see, if they did, then Sherlock is insulting people more than he really is...if you know what I mean. It will make him appear to be a bit nastier and ruder won't it.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdq1pcLCUR1rs9hrro1_500.jpg
 

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