BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

Davina · July 1, 2012 2:37 pm

Typically it takes a long while to get a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome. In the past it took even longer than now and sometimes no diagnosis was ever given and only now many, many years later people work out that they are Aspies. When I say typically, I think it normally takes until a child is around 8 or 9 years old for a diagnosis and that is if parents, teachers etc. all recognise the 'symptoms' ( dislike using medical terminology but I cannot think of a better term off the top of my head) and all parties co-operate.

I have taught children with autism and Asperger's syndrome and even nowadays people are sometimes concerned with stigma attached to these labels.

Imane is correct in pointing out that experience and certain conditions can 'turn' someone into being introverted or less social even if they are by natural disposition quite extrovert and sociable. Certainly different experiences can also work the opposite effect, where naturally introverted people who find it hard to socialise gain more self-confidence and find themselves to be more outgoing through positive experiences.

I am pleased that posting this article has prompted such worthwhile discussion and personal explanations.

Sherli Bakerst · July 1, 2012 7:04 pm

Fetchinketch wrote:
Asperger's does not have a single presentation, it is a spectrum. And the high functioning end of the spectrum can be extremely talented and accomplished.

Yes, I see that in the students at the school where I work who've been diagnosed with Asperger's. They have a range of characteristics that makes them "stick out," for want of a better descriptive term. But they do share certain traits, such as an inability to "read" people's reactions to things they do or say so it is sometimes easy for us teachers to see who might be on the spectrum and then keep a closer eye on them to see if they would benefit from receiving special education support of some sort or to ensure they receive accommodations if they qualify for them.

In terms of diagnosis, I'm not sure what's involved here in the US but I do know that parents are often in denial and will not take their kids to a doctor to have them checked out. I know two kids, who were probably between ten and eleven at the time, who clearly manifested Asperger's symptoms, but they were the only children in their families and no matter how much teachers tried to discuss the issues the children were having, the parents didn't think there was anything out of the ordinary going on. Because they had nothing to compare their kids' behavior with. Finally, one child was taken for an appointment and came back saying he had been diagnosed with Asperger's and now he'd have no more friends. Not that he actually had a slew of friends before but it was sad how he perceived things. We (the adults) all tried to make him feel better. The fact that he blurted this out in the middle of a classroom lesson only served to prove the diagnosis, we felt.

I wonder what Sherlock's parents thought of their son. Sheesh--I'm talking as if he were a real person! But it would be cool to know. Is there anything in the canon that touches on this? I haven't read all of it yet to know.

Anyway, this is a really interesting discussion.

hepzibah · July 2, 2012 3:37 am

I have to admit, I was a bit reluctant to post on this thread until I read about the other members here who have Aspergers. It is something I've suffered (and I really mean suffered) from all my life but didn't know about it until recently. I have always been a bit of an outsider but didn't know why. With the diagnosis of Aspergers, well at least I have a reason and know I am not the only one. It is surprising what a difference it makes to know that you are not a freak but have a reason for your differences.

These two quotes below sum up an important aspect of Aspergers to me.
"Emotional empathy, which is what most people mean by “empathy�� , involves an emotional, sympathetic response to another’s feelings in which one feels some of the emotion the other person feels."

"Autism spectrum disorders involve impaired cognitive empathy and, in most cases, average to heightened emotional empathy. People with ASDs often do not show the appropriate emotions in response to another person’s feelings, as when Watson has to remind Sherlock “We can’t giggle, it’s a crime scene,�� but that is typically because they do not intuitively understand what the other person feels and/or why the other person feels that way, and because their ways of showing emotion may vary from the norm."

I have in the past shown inappropriate reactions to events, but have trained myself to be more 'conformist' for want of a better word. But I cry when watching the news and seeing people in Syria being killed in fighting, or am thrilled about the first democratic elections in Egypt. Why? I don't know these people!

Back to Sherlock, I think that he feels that because he is so clever he doesn't need to conform to societal expectations of appropriate behaviour. The rest of us aren't that clever (or that indifferent to other people's reactions) so have had to learn to 'blend in'.

Anyway, it is nice to be among people who 'get' me. So much better than Real Life, which can be a struggle at times.

Last edited by hepzibah (July 2, 2012 3:40 am)

Smoggy_London_Air · July 2, 2012 3:47 am

I do often wonder about their parents, too. I think that Mycroft probably has a slight form of Aspergers too, although not as severe as in Sherlock.

I actually bawled when my mother told me that she thought I might have "a kind of autism". Now, I don't mind it so much. I get the feeling that a younger Sherlock wouldn't have minded at all in the first place. I feel like he would have shrugged it off because at 9 or 10 he'd already be aware that he was different. A label probably wouldn't change that to him.

Molly Hooper · July 2, 2012 3:20 pm

No, you are still you. But you just fit into a different box!

Smoggy_London_Air · July 2, 2012 4:43 pm

Hard to understand at the age of 10, though. There were a few autistic kids at my school who were bullied and made fun of. Of course, like you said a diagnosis doesn't change you, but I was irrationally afraid that would happen to me.

I get the feeling Sherlock might have been homeschooled. His family was rich in the canon, so they would have been able to hire private tutors and such. Possibly he went to boarding school or a grammar school.

Morton · July 7, 2012 9:07 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
imane nikko wrote:
I think Sherlock isn't really either one. In general I get more of an Asperger's feel from him, but he does have a great deal of empathy when it's convenient -- the few times he's "faked" neurotypical behavior it was with great facility.

His false tears with the wife of the "murdered" banker in the Great Game, the "I've forgotten my keys" speech to get into the apartment in the Blind Banker, and his impression of the vicar in Scandal... maybe I'm misinterpreting what Asperger's is, but those impersonations would be very hard for someone who lacks the emotional empathy the article describes as the province of sociopaths.
Aspie's can still be good actors...Sherlock's a brilliant actor. He can pretend to have emotions in order to trigger certain behaviours and responses in others. He understands HOW emotions work and he understands how to manipulate them...he just doesn't FEEL them in the same way as everyone else. Does that kinda make sense?

Also, I've always imagined Sherlock as the kind of guy who would be a great actor but a bad liar.

I'm rather, ahem, ok a /great/ deal towards logic and being practical so if someone has a problem my first reaction isn't to get emotional it's to analyse the problem and come up with a practical solution. I don't think I'm a high functioning Aspie but who knows. Sherlock doesn't lie to John that I can see, he may not tell the truth but being economical with it isn't actively lying ie he doesn't tell John he's going to use him as a lab experiment in HOUND.

Sherlock, and canon Holmes, are both accomplished actors who can replicate or simulate emotional behaviours. I had a friend who is a high functioning sociopathic and from that I'm certain Sherlock isn't one. Do Aspies have a large collection of photos, objects and random worthless items because they like the object as a reminder of when or how they accquired it or is keeping something due to sentiment.

It seems very possible to me to know HOW emotions work and know what chemicals are at work producing bodily symptoms and be able to identify them by physical manifestations. FEEL the body betraying itself by physical signs I don't know, understand them as having a particular label yes. Neurotypical feeling, I'll just put down the spade shall I.

I had great parents who let me be me so I grew up with the idea that being yourself is right and normal, but you can be different to what other people think is right and normal. You can be different and on the side of the angels and as I can't think of a better way of saying it what you know matters, what people think is much less important, its not you that's stupid or wrong.

CreamLemon · July 17, 2012 1:18 pm

A couple days late to the convo, but I just joined so gimme a break.

I've always been different but I could never figure out why. I have a hard time connecting to people, keeping friends, and so on. I started watching Bones and recognized myself on the screen, and then Sherlock, and there I was again. I'm not as brilliant as they are, but everything else fits. I haven't gone after a diagnosis (I don't think I'm severe enough for one to help me) but I'm pretty confident that I'm on the tail-end of the spectrum and I the more I learn the more I see it in some of my relatives too. It's been a real eye-opening experience for me.

I love that Aspies are on TV. They give me someone to connect to, when otherwise I feel so alone.

hepzibah · July 17, 2012 1:35 pm

Hi CreamLemon, welcome to our world of aspies and non-aspies

If you plan on sticking around, why don't you go to our introductions thread and tell us a bit about yourself. We are a very welcoming bunch.

ancientsgate · July 31, 2012 2:51 am

Davina wrote:
Fantastic, thought provoking and informative article here. Please read it and the comments that follow it for a clearer view of these two very different, yet frequently confused conditions.
http://globalcomment.com/2012/bbcs-sherlock-asperger%E2%80%99s-syndrome-and-sociopathy/

Excellent article, Davina. Thanks so much for posting this link, which I just found. There is a whole wealth of wonderful stuff on this forum, and after a couple of months, I haven't even begun to delve into it all.

The idea that Sherlock has autism rather than being a sociopath sits well with me. The points made in that article make perfect sense. I liked the last comment, that showrunners and writers who want to create autistic or sociopathic characters for TV should do their research and get it right. In Sherlock's case, apparently they did not.

Question: the author of the article said <<<While Watson mentions the possibility of Sherlock having Asperger’s briefly in one episode, it is not referenced elsewhere in the series.>>> Does anyone have any idea what episode that was in?

ancientsgate · July 31, 2012 2:59 am

Born in the very late 1940s and in elementary school in the 50s, there was no such thing as autism in my childhood. You either sat still in class, feet flat on the floor, head down doing your work and not questioning parents, teachers, scout leaders or clergy, or you got In Trouble. Simple as that. No one was labeled anything but smart or stupid, no one was anything but good or bad, no one was given medications or taken to talk therapists. You either succeeded or you failed. Sink or swim. You folks here who are in your 20s or younger, maybe even those in their 40s or younger, cannot imagine what those days were like. I was scared, all the time. I KNEW I was different, had few friends, never felt adequate or loved, my teeth stuck out, I started a glandular-type weight problem at about 10 or 11 with huge breasts and hips, and it was AWFUL. I hid a lot, became a loner, and although a good student, no one ever encouraged me to be much. When I insisted on going for a 2-year degree after high school, to "learn to do something" (my mother's words), she never let me forget that the whole thing cost her $7000. I was never quite sure I was worth it, to be honest. This inadequate thing has dogged me all my life. Would it have helped if I'd been diagnosed and labeled, given someone to talk to and a pill to take if I needed it when I was growing up? I don't know. But all I know is, it HAS to be easier now, at least on some level, than it was back in my young life. Has to be.

deerstalker · July 31, 2012 3:58 am

ancientsgate wrote:
Question: the author of the article said <<<While Watson mentions the possibility of Sherlock having Asperger’s briefly in one episode, it is not referenced elsewhere in the series.>>> Does anyone have any idea what episode that was in?

Yes, it is in "The Hounds of Baskerville"; Sherlock and John see Lestrade; John and Lestrade exit the pub and John tells Lestrade: " You know he is actually pleased you are here... etc ( am writing from memory so not verbatum), then Lestrade says "I suppose he likes having the same faces back together due to his..." and John finishes with half- questioning "Asperger's". I just checked- it's about 56 minutes into the 'Hounds"

Last edited by deerstalker (July 31, 2012 3:59 am)

The Doctor · July 31, 2012 5:27 am

"Watson mentions the possibility of Sherlock having Asperger’s briefly in one episode"

after they step out of the pub, John makes this comment to Lestrade in Baskerville..

Davina · July 31, 2012 8:04 am

That's correct. He says something about his Asperger's or whatever it is and how nice it must be for him then to have so many people he knows round him there.

Last edited by Davina (July 31, 2012 8:04 am)

ancientsgate · July 31, 2012 9:03 am

deerstalker wrote:
ancientsgate wrote:
Question: the author of the article said <<<While Watson mentions the possibility of Sherlock having Asperger’s briefly in one episode, it is not referenced elsewhere in the series.>>> Does anyone have any idea what episode that was in?
Yes, it is in "The Hounds of Baskerville"; Sherlock and John see Lestrade; John and Lestrade exit the pub and John tells Lestrade: " You know he is actually pleased you are here... etc ( am writing from memory so not verbatum), then Lestrade says "I suppose he likes having the same faces back together due to his..." and John finishes with half- questioning "Asperger's". I just checked- it's about 56 minutes into the 'Hounds"

Thanks. Must watch that ep again, with subtitles always on.

Smoggy_London_Air · August 10, 2012 5:05 am

Morton wrote:
Sherlock, and canon Holmes, are both accomplished actors who can replicate or simulate emotional behaviours. I had a friend who is a high functioning sociopathic and from that I'm certain Sherlock isn't one. Do Aspies have a large collection of photos, objects and random worthless items because they like the object as a reminder of when or how they accquired it or is keeping something due to sentiment.

Interesting question, Morton. I'm not sure if it's a symptom of my Aspergers or if it's just a personality quirk (although all of my personality quirks do seem to be symptoms when I look them up...) but I am a shameless hoarder. It's funny that you asked, because just this morning I tackled the major project of cleaning out my room. There was so much stuff. Old school projects, penny dreadfuls, old letters, you name it. All in the bin, now. It's Sherlock that finally convinced me to do it, strangely enough. Some stuff was hard to throw away but I kept repeating "Sentiment is a chemical defect found in the losing side." to myself. My room is a lot easier to breathe in now.

Sherlock tends to keep papers in the canon, but obviously with his dislike of sentiment in the series he might not keep anything of sentimental value and just stick to records of cases and other things that might be useful.

The Doctor · August 10, 2012 7:56 am

Well done on the cleaning up, but do not be too hard on yourself either - remember, Moftiss pointed out that Sherlock keeps his bedroom immaculate by dumping everything in the shared living room! lol

Morton · August 10, 2012 1:39 pm

Smoggy_London_Air wrote:
Morton wrote:
Sherlock, and canon Holmes, are both accomplished actors who can replicate or simulate emotional behaviours. I had a friend who is a high functioning sociopathic and from that I'm certain Sherlock isn't one. Do Aspies have a large collection of photos, objects and random worthless items because they like the object as a reminder of when or how they accquired it or is keeping something due to sentiment.
Interesting question, Morton. I'm not sure if it's a symptom of my Aspergers or if it's just a personality quirk (although all of my personality quirks do seem to be symptoms when I look them up...) but I am a shameless hoarder. It's funny that you asked, because just this morning I tackled the major project of cleaning out my room. There was so much stuff. Old school projects, penny dreadfuls, old letters, you name it. All in the bin, now. It's Sherlock that finally convinced me to do it, strangely enough. Some stuff was hard to throw away but I kept repeating "Sentiment is a chemical defect found in the losing side." to myself. My room is a lot easier to breathe in now.

Sherlock tends to keep papers in the canon, but obviously with his dislike of sentiment in the series he might not keep anything of sentimental value and just stick to records of cases and other things that might be useful.

Mmm yeah, I wonder too which are personality and symptoms. I'm untidy by most people's standards but I know where everything is, to me that is just being organised well- but it doesn't resemble their version of 'tidy'. I keep a manageable number of reminders that are bound up with my personal history .I did well myself changing my pc recently and do you know I much prefer it now to my old one! Well, sometimes I can write about emotions and sometimes I can't. It is good to hear after your spring clean you have room to breathe again.

Smoggy_London_Air · August 10, 2012 3:03 pm

Morton wrote:
Smoggy_London_Air wrote:
Morton wrote:
Sherlock, and canon Holmes, are both accomplished actors who can replicate or simulate emotional behaviours. I had a friend who is a high functioning sociopathic and from that I'm certain Sherlock isn't one. Do Aspies have a large collection of photos, objects and random worthless items because they like the object as a reminder of when or how they accquired it or is keeping something due to sentiment.
Interesting question, Morton. I'm not sure if it's a symptom of my Aspergers or if it's just a personality quirk (although all of my personality quirks do seem to be symptoms when I look them up...) but I am a shameless hoarder. It's funny that you asked, because just this morning I tackled the major project of cleaning out my room. There was so much stuff. Old school projects, penny dreadfuls, old letters, you name it. All in the bin, now. It's Sherlock that finally convinced me to do it, strangely enough. Some stuff was hard to throw away but I kept repeating "Sentiment is a chemical defect found in the losing side." to myself. My room is a lot easier to breathe in now.

Sherlock tends to keep papers in the canon, but obviously with his dislike of sentiment in the series he might not keep anything of sentimental value and just stick to records of cases and other things that might be useful.
Mmm yeah, I wonder too which are personality and symptoms. I'm untidy by most people's standards but I know where everything is, to me that is just being organised well- but it doesn't resemble their version of 'tidy'. I keep a manageable number of reminders that are bound up with my personal history .I did well myself changing my pc recently and do you know I much prefer it now to my old one! Well, sometimes I can write about emotions and sometimes I can't. It is good to hear after your spring clean you have room to breathe again.

...autumn clean? It felt really good. It was nice to get my desk all cleared off and out. I'll probably take down a few of the pictures I have, maybe put up a periodic table, ha ha. It would be a lot of help, especially because I'm taking an advanced Chemistry course this coming school year.

I've always had trouble visualizing things in stories, or I always thought I had trouble. I figured that was just a problem that everybody had, not being able to see things perfectly in their head, but I looked it up, and surprise! It's a symptom. Your organizational system is a lot like that of Guy Ritchie's Sherlock. "Everything is in its proper place!"

Morton · August 10, 2012 11:50 pm

Smoggy_London_Air wrote:
Morton wrote:
Smoggy_London_Air wrote:

Interesting question, Morton. I'm not sure if it's a symptom of my Aspergers or if it's just a personality quirk (although all of my personality quirks do seem to be symptoms when I look them up...) but I am a shameless hoarder. It's funny that you asked, because just this morning I tackled the major project of cleaning out my room. There was so much stuff. Old school projects, penny dreadfuls, old letters, you name it. All in the bin, now. It's Sherlock that finally convinced me to do it, strangely enough. Some stuff was hard to throw away but I kept repeating "Sentiment is a chemical defect found in the losing side." to myself. My room is a lot easier to breathe in now.

Sherlock tends to keep papers in the canon, but obviously with his dislike of sentiment in the series he might not keep anything of sentimental value and just stick to records of cases and other things that might be useful.
Mmm yeah, I wonder too which are personality and symptoms. I'm untidy by most people's standards but I know where everything is, to me that is just being organised well- but it doesn't resemble their version of 'tidy'. I keep a manageable number of reminders that are bound up with my personal history .I did well myself changing my pc recently and do you know I much prefer it now to my old one! Well, sometimes I can write about emotions and sometimes I can't. It is good to hear after your spring clean you have room to breathe again.
...autumn clean? It felt really good. It was nice to get my desk all cleared off and out. I'll probably take down a few of the pictures I have, maybe put up a periodic table, ha ha. It would be a lot of help, especially because I'm taking an advanced Chemistry course this coming school year.

I've always had trouble visualizing things in stories, or I always thought I had trouble. I figured that was just a problem that everybody had, not being able to see things perfectly in their head, but I looked it up, and surprise! It's a symptom. Your organizational system is a lot like that of Guy Ritchie's Sherlock. "Everything is in its proper place!"

Autumn clean, it's fine, it's all fine. I think we have stopped having seasons in Britain except 'cold and wet' and 'warm and dry' now.

I used to think that everyone saw the world the same way I did. When I realised they didn't I thought 'oh interesting' but also I came to the conclusion that my way was as good as anyone else's! One thing I'm good at is absorbing info that I find someone else forgets, not so much a canon attic more palace size but have never had to make an effort to store it. On the other hand I'll get absorbed in something hugely interesting and have no idea what day it is, I can look it up so why bother, I think.

One thing gets me.....the thing about body parts in the fridge....to me that is the only logical place for them....

Thank you I'm taking that as a compliment, re my storage system.

I'm sure a Periodic Table will help more than hinder. Good luck with your chemistry and remember the golden rule "Don't lick the spoon"