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June 29, 2012 9:03 pm  #21


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

hypergreenfrog wrote:

It might not be my position to interfere here, but I think what KeepersPrice meant is that by saying that John knows "where to look" she meant Sherlock, not herself.

Yes, I'm saying she's messing with John's mind by "exposing" that he secretly has the hots for Sherlock and that if he had his choice of where to look, it would not be at her. She plays the scene insinuating she's positively "sure" of where John's interest lies; but of Sherlock she's not so sure.  She can't detect if he's sexually interested in anything.  She's not insinuating he's gay or straight.  He could be either.  Sherlock "rescues" John when he mentions the naked women on his laptop, more or less saying, "You got it wrong about what he likes lady - he's all male and he's got the pictures to prove it. So let's talk about something else now.  You're boring me with this stuff."

Irene knows sex and the game of humiliation and she knows how to completely manipulate her clients and her victims.  It's her job and she's really, really good at it.  She doesn't hold back when it comes to "ball-busting". She's bringing out all her weapons to use on these two - hoping to detect a weakness somewhere.  That's how I read the scene anyway.


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June 30, 2012 3:00 pm  #22


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I just wonder how Sherlock got her body measurements RIGHT,  to open the safe with.  now THAT was amazingly accurate, wouldn't you say?  Ok,  I  didn't really see anything except for a little tiny exposed piece of Irene's lovely chest area...when she moved her arm back as she grabbed the paper from sherlock's collar....or was that my imagination?  John was hopelessly  at a loss for words;  Sherlock wasn't.   hmmmmm.


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June 30, 2012 5:16 pm  #23


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

But Sherlock did stumble over his words which is unheard of.


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June 30, 2012 9:29 pm  #24


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

yeah  he mumbled,  then went into his deductions.  I think he did that cos he wanted to distract John from Irene and vice versa, and HE wanted to be the center of attention.


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SHERLOCK!!!!!!
 

July 6, 2012 4:03 pm  #25


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Sherlock saw the question marks next to Irene because she was naked and he couldn't read her. He does, after all, get most of his deductions from clothing. He does get some things from facial expressions, hands etc but her nails and make up were immaculate, no bags under her eyes like John which signified his night out with Stamford. So basically the only thing he could read about her was her measurements.

He was definitely surprised to see her walk in naked, I mean WHO WOULDN'T BE?! I don't think it means he fancies her in any way, shape or form. He was just taken aback, and then he stumbled over his words because he was still in shock about it (someone should have passed him a shock blanket). Let's face it, he's probably never seen a naked woman in the flesh before so even if he's not interested in sex it's bound to have some impact on him.


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July 6, 2012 9:26 pm  #26


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

He was definitely surprised to see her walk in naked, I mean WHO WOULDN'T BE?! I don't think it means he fancies her in any way, shape or form.

I din't think he likes her, either. After the scene where he figured out the pass code to her phone, I didn't have much doubt about that. But that doesn't mean he doesn't feel sympathy towards her, and that he doesn't know how much he's hurt her. I think that's why he saved her at the end. He thinks she deserves to live after what he's done to her.

 

October 5, 2012 8:22 pm  #27


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I think Sherlock believes she deserves to live, cos she's no Moriarty.

Last edited by besleybean (February 13, 2013 9:24 pm)


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February 13, 2013 9:22 pm  #28


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Sherlock just have a good heart, though he's diagnosed as a sociopath. Yup, she's no Moriarty.. and rescuing her,, that's just sweet, isn't it?

I just love SH's line where he said that "love is a dangerous disadvantage, thank you for the final proof..' that's just heartbreaking for Adler,, well, she was like humiliated of some sort. And she got weepy,, but she was rescued. maybe Sherlock's way of saying sorry. : )


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February 13, 2013 9:25 pm  #29


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I don't think it's Sherlock saying sorry.
He may FEEL a little sorry for her.


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February 13, 2013 10:10 pm  #30


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

KeepersPrice wrote:

Sherlock "rescues" John when he mentions the naked women on his laptop, more or less saying, "You got it wrong about what he likes lady - he's all male and he's got the pictures to prove it. So let's talk about something else now.  You're boring me with this stuff."

Thanks for pointing that out, KP - I didn't notice or never really thought about it because of all the other stuff going on in the scene.
When Sherlock says he would borrow John's laptop if he wanted to look at naked women, he is not only saying something about himself, but also about John. Everybody (meaning all the other characters) always assume John is gay and Sherlock is the only one (except for John himself) who "defends" him against it now and then. He also does it in TGG in the scene with Jim from IT where he supports John's "I put product in my hair" by saying, "You wash your hair, there's a difference." So he does it at least twice. Only in John's presence though, probably because he knows John likes to hear it. Whatever it means, it's interesting.

Last edited by QuiteExtraordinary (February 13, 2013 10:11 pm)


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February 13, 2013 10:13 pm  #31


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Not everyone assumes John is gay. Some people imply it and others jump to conclusions.


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February 13, 2013 10:17 pm  #32


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

That's because my English is not good enough to express exactly what I mean sometimes.


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February 13, 2013 10:27 pm  #33


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Is what I put what you mean?


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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February 13, 2013 10:31 pm  #34


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Yes. Probably.


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140302/9ovmk4uv.jpg
… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

March 28, 2013 7:21 pm  #35


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Sherlock and Irene seemed to oddly trust each other after the first meeting, they were something of kindred spirits.  Granted a lot of what happened was part of a bigger game she was playing with Moriarty, but in the Vatican Cameos moment when they were being held by the CIA poopy heads at gun point, there was some really effective non verbal communication between them.  ( her hinting at the code and hinting at him that there was a gun in the safe).


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"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

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March 28, 2013 7:47 pm  #36


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Oh I think they are almost a  male/female mirror image of each other...but Irene didn't choose the side of the angels( and I hate that expression!).

Last edited by besleybean (March 29, 2013 7:32 pm)


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March 29, 2013 7:28 pm  #37


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Well I think the whole thing with John is that we don't know. Pretty much everything said in relation to his sexuality is almost zen, nothing is ever said clearly, things can always be taken two ways and my sense is that that is because he is working through it, probably a lot more than he realises, certainly more than he is willing to admit. The writers convey this unsettled sense very well, of "what the hell are these feelings, I'm a normal guy" that are pretty familiar, I'd say, to a lot of people who have grown up not-straight at least pre mass-internet and under our Section 28 (so anyone over about 25)

So when she says "he" (John) "knows exactly where to look,", it is meant to be ambiguous. She says at one point that Moriaty has told her how to play the Holmes brothers-presumably he also told her how to play John. But she plays people by knowing them well and knowing their weaknesses. I don't get the impression that she ever lies-therein is her genius

My own sense is that John's actual problem more than anything is that the feelings he has for Sherlock, as a fundementally straight man, are actually not ones he has any experience of, that fit into anything he understands, that is reflected in his reality. So John's feelings may very well not be sexual but without an context for him to pin them to they are hard for him to understand. I know not everyone agrees, but I'd consider strong same-sex friendship-I mean to the point where your world ends because your best friend dies, where the last thing you want to look at is each other...well that might not be sexual, but, that is a freaking strong feeling there. Yk, not all gay relationships are about sex, just like not all straight relationships are all about the sex, and I think this is part of the ambiguity, that you often get in media representations of gay relationships, that, unlike straight relationships to be gay you have to have specific and strong sexual feelings whereas for straight relatinships, a strong desire just to be together is enough.. Which is why I see the writers as unwilling to declare either way-they are mimicing that uncertain, that "where the hell do I fit here" feeling, And nowadays, if John just felt straightforward lust, actually that would make sense, albeit he'd be uncomfortable. His reality, of a non-sexual attraction to another man,  what I think Gatiss calls "move" is just not reflected anywhere else except occasionally in tv bromance where everyone is raising an eyebrow anyway.

Last edited by beekeeper (March 29, 2013 7:39 pm)


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Sherlock Holmes "The question is, has she been working on something deadlier than a rabbit?"
John Watson : "To be fair, that is quite a wide field"

The Hounds of Baskerville
 

March 29, 2013 7:36 pm  #38


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I think the writers are perfectly clear on 2 points:
1.John is straight and I sinecerely expect to see him married/settled down, this coming series,
2. He loves Sherlock.
Conan Doyle wrote the perfect bromance and this is what BBC Sherlock shows.


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March 29, 2013 7:44 pm  #39


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

yes

but "bromance" isn't really something that actually exists in real life. Not IME anyway. In many years on this planet, having known many, many different kinds of people, I have never known a bromance. I cannot think of a single pair of male friends I know who are each other's world like this, who would write a suicide note to each other or reach out hands to touch before death. "bromance", imo, is a word invented to circumvent what's actually happening, which is that sexuality isn't fixed for any of us and that gay relationships don't necessitate sex any more than straight ones do. You can and do have long term, chaste, same sex relationships where there is a lot of love. 

I'm so not a shipper. But I do struggle a bit here because to me, this is obviously a relationship with a lot of things in common with a same sex relationship. And part of me thinks, why the protest?




 

Last edited by beekeeper (March 29, 2013 7:46 pm)


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Sherlock Holmes "The question is, has she been working on something deadlier than a rabbit?"
John Watson : "To be fair, that is quite a wide field"

The Hounds of Baskerville
 

March 29, 2013 7:48 pm  #40


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

In my experience,not uncommon for Sherlock Holmes fans to be personally aware of this.


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