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June 28, 2012 4:46 pm  #1


Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I have posted on the general discussion topic thread about Sherlock's and John's relationship. It could, probably, just as easily fit in this thread here. If anyone is interested go onto the other thread and have a look and let me know what you think. It relates to the nude scene.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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June 28, 2012 6:20 pm  #2


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Davina wrote:

I don't think this point has been raised here but it specifically to do with Sherlock's handling of the situation with Irene when she appears in the nude in ASiB. He seems to project his own awkwardness and bafflement onto John.

He says, " I don't think John knows where to look."

To which Irene replies, remember she is also very, very good at assessing people," He knows exactly where. Not sure about you...".

Sherlock then tries to deflect his 'embarrassment'/'bafflement' further by saying that if he wanted to look at naked women all he would have to do is look at John's laptop. John has a quick retort ready for that.

So, my point is, in this scene Sherlock is using John to deflect Irene's attention away from himself and what is for him a very unusual situation where he actually feels somewhat out of his depth. I think he does this partly because he believes that John being a 'man of the world' will somehow be able to handle the situation in someway. In fact John does just that by suggesting Irene puts something on, albeit he suggests a table napkin at first.

Davina, I brought your post over here to start a new thread and to have a go at this specific topic.

I'll have a go at it


I think you are right in that Sherlock wanted to pass this on to John. If so we ask, why?. One, Sherlock is attracted to Irene and as such is flustered. I think this can be discarded because at this point Sherlock is not aware how intelligent and challenging she is which surely forms the primary basis for any feelings he may later experience for her. Two, he realizes that literally this is John's area of expertise. Sherlock discards any information not important to him and this subject is something not invited into his Palace. Three, Sherlock is offended that a woman would think such a lowbrow guttural stunt would have any effect on him and he feels obligated to dare I say "dress her down" and let her know he considers it a cheap worthless stunt by completely deflecting it. Four, Sherlock makes his comments simply to kid John as part of their usual jousting repartee. Five, is what you suggest. He may not have real feelings for her but this truly does fluster and affect him. He has never been put in this position before because he has never sought it out.


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Disguise is always a self portrait
 

June 28, 2012 7:31 pm  #3


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I don't know. Irene saw straight through his disguise and took away his abiity to "read" her by welcoming him naked. I think he was impressed with her right off the bat. Not as much as later, of course, but I think he respected her for disarming him.

Coming from Sherlock, "moderately clever" is a high compliment.

 

June 28, 2012 9:35 pm  #4


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Maybe I saw this scene a little differently than everyone else.  I saw Irene immediately start baiting them both when John comes into the room with the "Somebody loves you" business - teasing or taunting John with a reference to sexual preference and thereby trying to goad Sherlock also.  John laughs somewhat nervously after her taunt - interpret that how you will - and then asks her to please put something on.  She responds with, "Feeling exposed?" to him, subtext meaning, "Oh, have I hit the mark about you?".  I guess then Sherlock says, "I don't think John knows where to look." and she responds in that purring cat-like taunting way, "I think he knows exactly where to look." Subtext meaning, "It's not me he wants to look at - it's you!"  Then she says to Sherlock, "I'm not sure about you." More baiting or taunting or perhaps hitting some truth - whatever, she's trying to keep them both off guard.  She really knows how to play the game. In my mind Sherlock tries to rescue John from the overall discomfort and attack on his masculinity by informing Irene that John has pictures of naked women on his laptop, subtext meaning, "Whatever you're insinuating about him or us isn't true so you can stop playing that game."  I just don't see Sherlock too flustered yet and still pretty much in charge of the situation.  But Irene is very good at what she does and he doesn't completely have her number yet like he does with other people. So I can see that he doesn't have his full equilibriam around her and may lose it even more as he begins to realize her intelligence. And it does make for good entertainment when he stammers his words.

It's probably easy to see I'm not too crazy about good old Irene. I only find her useful for what she can "tell" me about John and Sherlock. 

But again, how amazing to see there can be a so many angles and viewpoints and interpretations from one small scene. Genius!


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And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

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June 28, 2012 9:39 pm  #5


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

KeepersPrice wrote:

Maybe I saw this scene a little differently than everyone else.  I saw Irene immediately start baiting them both when John comes into the room with the "Somebody loves you" business - teasing or taunting John with a reference to sexual preference and thereby trying to goad Sherlock also.  John laughs somewhat nervously after her taunt - interpret that how you will - and then asks her to please put something on.  She responds with, "Feeling exposed?" to him, subtext meaning, "Oh, have I hit the mark about you?".  I guess then Sherlock says, "I don't think John knows where to look." and she responds in that purring cat-like taunting way, "I think he knows exactly where to look." Subtext meaning, "It's not me he wants to look at - it's you!"  Then she says to Sherlock, "I'm not sure about you." More baiting or taunting or perhaps hitting some truth - whatever, she's trying to keep them both off guard.  She really knows how to play the game. In my mind Sherlock tries to rescue John from the overall discomfort and attack on his masculinity by informing Irene that John has pictures of naked women on his laptop, subtext meaning, "Whatever you're insinuating about him or us isn't true so you can stop playing that game."  I just don't see Sherlock too flustered yet and still pretty much in charge of the situation.  But Irene is very good at what she does and he doesn't completely have her number yet like he does with other people. So I can see that he doesn't have his full equilibriam around her and may lose it even more as he begins to realize her intelligence. And it does make for good entertainment when he stammers his words.

It's probably easy to see I'm not too crazy about good old Irene. I only find her useful for what she can "tell" me about John and Sherlock. 

But again, how amazing to see there can be a so many angles and viewpoints and interpretations from one small scene. Genius!

I agree that she was trying to keep them off guard. But she acknowledged John knew where to look so I am not sure Sherlock felt he needed to defends John's masculinity or sexuality.


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Disguise is always a self portrait
 

June 29, 2012 3:16 am  #6


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Sentimental Pulse wrote:

I agree that she was trying to keep them off guard. But she acknowledged John knew where to look so I am not sure Sherlock felt he needed to defends John's masculinity or sexuality.

Sorry Sentimental, I guess I'm missing your point.  So where does Irene insinuate John looks when she teases him with this line? My take on it is that she's extending the "somebody loves you" taunt; therefore, she's not talking about the naked female body standing in front him.  She's insinuating he always looks at a certain someone else in the same room in order to goad them both on.  But like I said, I'm probably interpreting this very differently than everyone else. I'm known to do that - a lot! 


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And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/lianafuller/qwer_zpsbebc7b3b.png
 

June 29, 2012 4:05 am  #7


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

imane nikko wrote:

I don't know. Irene saw straight through his disguise and took away his abiity to "read" her by welcoming him naked. I think he was impressed with her right off the bat. Not as much as later, of course, but I think he respected her for disarming him.

Coming from Sherlock, "moderately clever" is a high compliment.

I don't think she had to see through Sherlock's disguise. She had numerous photos of him and knew he was coming. He didn't disguise his face at all, just had John rough it up a bit.

Of course, the contrast between their two choices of outfits (or lacke thereof) was clever. And I also enjoyed watching them get ready for their "date."

 

June 29, 2012 4:41 am  #8


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

veecee wrote:

imane nikko wrote:

I don't know. Irene saw straight through his disguise and took away his abiity to "read" her by welcoming him naked. I think he was impressed with her right off the bat. Not as much as later, of course, but I think he respected her for disarming him.

Coming from Sherlock, "moderately clever" is a high compliment.

I don't think she had to see through Sherlock's disguise. She had numerous photos of him and knew he was coming. He didn't disguise his face at all, just had John rough it up a bit.

Of course, the contrast between their two choices of outfits (or lacke thereof) was clever. And I also enjoyed watching them get ready for their "date."

I meant from Sherlock's perspective. Obviously she wasn't clever to see through it, since we know she saw pictures, but she had a very effective counter-strategy. I don't think he often has the experience of having things go entirely off plan; the look on his face when he saw her, the frantic recalculation... I think that's Sherlock's version of a turn on.

Yes, the getting ready was hilarious. "I always hear 'punch me in the face' when you're speaking, but usually it's subtext" is one of my all time favorite lines of the series.

 

June 29, 2012 8:06 am  #9


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I am amazed by all your observations, you really make me think about this. I have only seen the episode once, so I definitely don't have the insight you people have, but I am tempted to agree with Davina on her interpretation.
We are told through the writing on the screen that Sherlock cannot read Irene the way he usually reads people (several "???" appear), so that must bother him on some level. Whether it is because he is attracted to her without realising, or because she is so good at her "job" that she can actually disguise herself even beyond Sherlock's powers of deduction, I dare not say.
Sherlock loves a good challenge, so we would expect that he feels quite at home with Irene's game, and after a while I think he really does (once things move on the safe). But in that very first scene with Irene and John, I would say we see Sherlock out of his depth, not so much because he is faced with a naked woman, but because she forces him to play by her rules, and he is not used to that happening.


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"There is no such word as 'impossible' in my dictionary. In fact, everything between 'herring' and 'marmalade' seems to be missing." Dirk Gently

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June 29, 2012 10:58 am  #10


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

KeepersPrice wrote:

Sentimental Pulse wrote:

I agree that she was trying to keep them off guard. But she acknowledged John knew where to look so I am not sure Sherlock felt he needed to defends John's masculinity or sexuality.

Sorry Sentimental, I guess I'm missing your point.  So where does Irene insinuate John looks when she teases him with this line? My take on it is that she's extending the "somebody loves you" taunt; therefore, she's not talking about the naked female body standing in front him.  She's insinuating he always looks at a certain someone else in the same room in order to goad them both on.  But like I said, I'm probably interpreting this very differently than everyone else. I'm known to do that - a lot! 

I'm not sure I am following, KP. I guess I need a little more coffee this morning If I am reading you right you believe she assumes both are gay and she is waxing sarcastically and teasing Sherlock about being jealous by saying at least John knows where to look (erogenous zones) at a nude woman, yet she is not sure of Sherlock does?

I never took the scene that way. I assumed she was feeling them out about their sexuality not teasing them about being gay. She had advance information on John and Sherlock. She knew Sherlock's name and about the boomerang case. So she would also know John dates women. She may be curious about the contrast between that and his closeness to Sherlock. Two, after she says John knows where to look, she tells Sherlock "I am not sure about you". If she had assumed both were gay she never would have said I am not sure about you, to Sherlock. Three, Moriarty gave him the nickname "The Virgin" so she may be teasing him about that.

I know one thing, your views are always so perceptive, KP. So, after work today I shall watch the scene again to see if I can look at it from another angle. I just love the brilliance of the people in this community

Last edited by Sentimental Pulse (June 29, 2012 11:33 am)


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Disguise is always a self portrait
 

June 29, 2012 11:33 am  #11


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

It might not be my position to interfere here, but I think what KeepersPrice meant is that by saying that John knows "where to look" she meant Sherlock, not herself.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"There is no such word as 'impossible' in my dictionary. In fact, everything between 'herring' and 'marmalade' seems to be missing." Dirk Gently

Finally, I have made it to Cipher Expert :-))))) (8.8.2012)
 

June 29, 2012 12:02 pm  #12


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

hypergreenfrog wrote:

It might not be my position to interfere here, but I think what KeepersPrice meant is that by saying that John knows "where to look" she meant Sherlock, not herself.

Thanks HGF. I'll need to rewatch the scene with that angle in mind.


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Disguise is always a self portrait
 

June 29, 2012 12:06 pm  #13


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Someone should definitely post a few screenshots from this scene.


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June 29, 2012 1:19 pm  #14


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

One other comment to make if I may, regarding character motivation.

We talked about how Sherlock may or may not have been affected by Irene's nude appearance. Let's consider what she may be feeling, not just in this scene but throughout the story.

Irene is a woman who has made a fabulous living seducing and sexually toying with Britain's elite. She has held powerful businessmen, politicians and even royalty in her hand. She confidently jokes with Kate about the approproiate outfit to use to best play spider to Sherlock's fly. Then this Sherlock completely dusts her off and ignores all she throws at him, the nudity, the flirty texts, the teasing, the intellectual oneupsmanship.

This must infuriate Irene yet at the same time serve as an impetus for her falling for him. Sherlock is the first man (or woman) she can respect as a romantic and intellectual equal. We have hints of that initial respect when she tells Kate the one black dress is not good enough for Sherlock, while dismissively commenting that any outfit turns Kate on.

No woman wants a wimp she can control. Sherlock is the first man to treat Irene like dirt and not crumble to her charms. On one level she absolutely adores him and wants him for it. And she is so haughty about it and so sure Sherlock feels nothing and can assess nothing about this in return that she is willing and reckless enough to gamble in the ironic spirit of the game by broadcasting her feelings openly via the password on her phone.

What a wonderfully complex and chemistry driven relationship these two have.

Last edited by Sentimental Pulse (June 29, 2012 1:22 pm)


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Disguise is always a self portrait
 

June 29, 2012 1:26 pm  #15


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

So...to put more cats among the pigeons let us add two more quotations from Irene during this scene and consider their implications.

1. "Oh, it's always hard to remember an alias when you've had a fright. Isn't it?"

2. " Do you know the problem with a disguise Mr. Holmes? However hard you try, it is always a self-portrait."

Considering quote 1: the 'fright' she is referring to might be the 'assault" Sherlock has suffered outside the flat but we all know that what she is referring to is her appearing naked, completely unexpectedly in front of him. She is fully aware that the 'assault' was staged.

Considering quote 2: Sherlock's disguise as a clergyman is a nod to the canon but to what is Irene referring? Does she suggest he is celibate? The 'Virgin' as we later find out Moriarty calls him?

Finally just one more observation which links to something I posted on another thread. Yet again here John does not lie. When he enters the building he says he is a doctor and that he saw what happened- both of these statements are true.


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June 29, 2012 1:31 pm  #16


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

Davina wrote:

So...to put more cats among the pigeons let us add two more quotations from Irene during this scene and consider their implications.

1. "Oh, it's always hard to remember an alias when you've had a fright. Isn't it?"

2. " Do you know the problem with a disguise Mr. Holmes? However hard you try, it is always a self-portrait."

Considering quote 1: the 'fright' she is referring to might be the 'assault" Sherlock has suffered outside the flat but we all know that what she is referring to is her appearing naked, completely unexpectedly in front of him. She is fully aware that the 'assault' was staged.

Considering quote 2: Sherlock's disguise as a clergyman is a nod to the canon but to what is Irene referring? Does she suggest he is celibate? The 'Virgin' as we later find out Moriarty calls him?

Finally just one more observation which links to something I posted on another thread. Yet again here John does not lie. When he enters the building he says he is a doctor and that he saw what happened- both of these statements are true.

I think you are right on both points. That is how she assesses it by making those comments.


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Disguise is always a self portrait
 

June 29, 2012 7:41 pm  #17


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I found out this scene took 8  hours to shoot.   so--  the expressions on their faces....to me,  they are of bemusements.   But  great acting,  nonetheless.  And it's because Irene was nude,  that Sherlock couldn't 'read' her like he read john,  who was clothed.  I  still can't believe the censors allowed this scene to stay in there.  But,  it was done, to move the story forward.


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June 29, 2012 7:50 pm  #18


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

sherlockskitty wrote:

I  still can't believe the censors allowed this scene to stay in there.

As much as I rub my eyes: I can't see anything undecent in this scene - frankly, I can't see anything at all!
Who is to blame for the viewers' imagination...?


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June 29, 2012 7:54 pm  #19


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

tobeornot221b wrote:

sherlockskitty wrote:

I  still can't believe the censors allowed this scene to stay in there.

As much as I rub my eyes: I can't see anything undecent in this scene - frankly, I can't see anything at all!
Who is to blame for the viewers' imagination...?

One has to wonder how many takes it took so that we didn't see anything. There seemed to be some close moments (not that I was really looking--too busy with my Quavers...).


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June 29, 2012 8:13 pm  #20


Re: Irene's nude scene Sherlock & John

I'm gonna start keeping count now!!


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