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June 27, 2012 10:06 pm  #1


now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Just watched it again and here's what's making me consider this possibility:

1) Sherlock thought there WAS a code and that would be his bargaining chip with JM.
2) Then he thought he could get JM to call off the assassins.  He obviously didn't know JM was going to
     commit suicide.
3)  After JM kills himself, Sherlock seems so distraught, not only by the shocking act he's just witnessed, but
     about what to do next?
4)  I think he knew a trick or two to maybe survive the fall, but was understandably nervous (understatement)
     and may have admonished John to stay away to avoid the horror of being right there if his plan wasn't
     successful as well as to not know his death was a ruse if it was.
5)  He made the "confession" to save the lives of his friends, regardless of the outcome of his fall.

This does NOT address the following:

1) Telling Molly he was going to die.
2) The bicyclist mowing John down.
3) The Network being there in place to remove his body and keep John away.

My previous agreement with most that the entire thing was planned doesn't jibe with his belief that he could bargain with the code, and after learning there was no code' his belief that he could make JM call off assassins.

That ball he was playing with has to mean something, but I was in the league of those who figured he'd used it to stop his pulse, and with this new uncertainty in my mind, that doesn't make sense if he didn't know he'd be
jumping off the roof.

It was just his behavior on the roof, and the mistakes he'd made in his assumptions, that make me question he had the whole thing planned.

This will drive me nuts until Season 3!

EDIT -- Oops, I should have posted this in the Theories threead!  Mea Culpa!  I'd move if if I knew how (don't even know if I'm allowed to).   Again, sorry!

Last edited by Maren (June 27, 2012 10:13 pm)

 

June 27, 2012 10:20 pm  #2


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Those are exactly my thoughts as well.  He can't have made plans that were too specific, though I do think he had a general plan that worked in this situation.

I'm thinking that the plan was similar to the one that the canonical Sherlock had after Watson was called away from the Falls.  He was resigned to the chance that he would likely not survive, but was willing to risk it in order to rid the world of Moriarty.  He invited JM to the rooftop for a reason...

Maybe he expected them both to fall from the rooftop, but had some hope of surviving?


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It was worth a wound–it was worth many wounds–to know the depth of loyalty and love which lay behind that cold mask. The clear, hard eyes were dimmed for a moment, and the firm lips were shaking. For the one and only time I caught a glimpse of a great heart as well as of a great brain. All my years of humble but single-minded service culminated in that moment of revelation.
 

June 27, 2012 10:31 pm  #3


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Fetchinketch wrote:

Maybe he expected them both to fall from the rooftop, but had some hope of surviving?

You make a good point -- there was a reason SH chose St. Bart's roof.

Head-banging, isn't it?

     Thread Starter
 

June 27, 2012 11:31 pm  #4


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

I reckon he did have a very good plan in place; however, any sane person would have thought to avoid following through with it if not needed.

Just a very clear calculation regarding unnecessary risks, I'd say!

 

July 9, 2012 7:24 pm  #5


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Maren wrote:

Just watched it again and here's what's making me consider this possibility:

1) Sherlock thought there WAS a code and that would be his bargaining chip with JM.

This is the thing where I just can't decide what to think...

Did he really think there was a code or was that just an act?


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Crime in Progress. Please Disturb.
 

July 9, 2012 8:50 pm  #6


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

If he didn't know he was possibly about to jump, he wouldn't have survived.

The code thing is rather confusing...

 

July 12, 2012 9:22 am  #7


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Sherlock definitely knew that Moriarty's final plan was to make him kill himself and to make him die in disgrace...he realised that as soon as they came out of Kitty's flat and that was when he went to see Molly.

And remember it was Sherlock who chose the location of the rooftop so he could have that extra bit of control over the situation, knowing that he had plans in place to fake it...I think he was still hoping he wouldn't have to go through with it though, and that maybe he could find a way out. Even with all the best planning in the world there was always a chance something could go wrong so I definitely think he may have been just a tiny bit nervous right before the jump but determined to carry it through whatever the outcome.

I don't think he knew about the assasins but he would have known Moriarty would have some kind of emotional ammunition to force him into it, and the thought of threatening his friends in some way would almost certainly have crossed his mind. I'm not sure whether he had any intentions of taking Moriarty over with him but then they would have both faked it together which would have been kind of pointless...I think he always intended to just do it on his own. He presumed Moriarty would give him that moment of privacy, which he did do, and then he'd be able to jump and Moriarty wouldn't notice the faking if it was done quick enough so that when Jim ran to the edge and looked over he'd see Sherlock splattered on the floor and the paramedics around him just like when John approached. He probably planned to come back and get Moriarty at a later stage once he had been in hiding for a while.


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July 20, 2012 12:49 am  #8


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Well, this could be one possibility.
I agree with what our boss said: "I think he was still hoping he wouldn't have to go through with it though, and that maybe he could find a way out."
Because I don't think he wanted to do this. (which is a possibility discussed on the "Let us start with the assumption Sherlock DID plan his 'death'" thread)

I'm uncertain with the code. He could have believed that there really was a code. This would go along quite good with the facts that he didn't have much time (and the show suggests that he only figures out that the tapping is the code when John taps on the table of St. Bart's) and that he always wants everything to be "clever" and that Moriarty is actually playing in the same league as Sherlock. You see, for the last point... which all the Sherlock-beating-Moriarty there should and could always be some things in which Moriarty beats Sherlock (at first).
And he really seems surprised when he finds out that the code is a lie on the rooftop.
OR he knew the code was a lie and was just pretending to fool Moriarty. That would be a very Sherlock thing of him to do.
What supports the latter theory is - was someone mentioned on this forum at some point - the code is actually "Partita No. 1" by Bach and the song Sherlock on his violin was playing when Moriarty entered 221B was a similiar piece by Bach, so he probably was familiar with the Paritita.
I can't decide which one is right. I think, though, that Sherlock believed that there was a code at least until John did the tapping thing. If he figured out then that it actually was a melody... I don't know. I think we have to wait for season 3 for the answer.
But even if he believed that there was a code to recall the snipers, I'm certain that he knew Moriarty would want him to jump. So either way he had something prepared to save his fall.

 

July 20, 2012 7:35 am  #9


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

I find it interesting, a bit anyway, that when Sherlock taps the code out for Jim he does so with his hands behind his back.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

July 20, 2012 12:02 pm  #10


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Sammy, the code confuses me too. I have gone through the same thought processes and will probably revisit them again (more than once, sadly). What confuses me even more is that Mycroft tells John about the keycode the second time John visits him at the Diogenes club, so he obviously believes in it. It was the reason for the interrogation at the end of Hound - so before the Tower of London/Pentonville/B of E caper. These were done to convince everyone that there was indeed a keycode. My thoughts only and these are likely to change in the future.

Davina, Moriarty initially taps the keycode surreptitiously on his knee, all I can think of is that Sherlock is playing the game (or at least is convincing Moriarty that he is still playing the game) by being equal to his stealth. (Equally stealthily didn't sound right). Other than that I'm hoping someone else can come up with something better.

Last edited by JaneCo (July 20, 2012 3:50 pm)


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July 20, 2012 12:09 pm  #11


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

OK, here's what I think about the code.
- Mycroft spoke of it early on.
- Moriarty teased Sherlock with it early on
- Sherlock deduced there was one
- Moriarty agreed with Sherlock that there was one

THEN .....

Sherlock began challenging Moriarty, and Moriarty started to falter.

Now think back to kids playing.
"I've got a secret"
"tell me"
"No"
"tell me"
"No"
"I worked out your secret" (tells what the secret is, and they are right)
"Aw well, um ... no that's not the secret"


Just because Moriarty SAYS there is no code, doesn't mean there is no code. For some reason, the villain who has done terrible things through the show says something contrary to what the hero deduces and people start saying " The  villain said it, so it must be true."
I think people are being blinded by the charm of the villain.
Imagine that, a criminal lying!


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

July 20, 2012 12:12 pm  #12


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Also, if there was no keycode but Moriarty had everone running around over it and so on what would these interested parties' reactions have been once the code was revealed as non-existent. Surely this would have, at the very least, undermined Moriarty's credibility in the marketplace. A dangerous position to be in.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

July 20, 2012 3:49 pm  #13


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Why would anyone believe that the code was non existent if they had once believed that it did exist. Just because you didn't find it doesn't mean that one of your rivals didn't get to it first. You wouldn't actually know for sure unless you were the one who found it, and looking at how desperate everyone was to find it you would have to be bonkers to publicise your find.

Yes, of course Moriarty could have been lying and there was in fact a keycode, but I came down on the side of 'probably not' because of his claim that  he had someone on the inside, with flashbacks to show how it was done. Generally, flashbacks are used to show what actually happened rather than in support of a lie.

Last edited by JaneCo (July 20, 2012 3:58 pm)


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July 20, 2012 5:58 pm  #14


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

I think we're just overthinking the code. I mean, how likely is it that there's a code that can break through anything?  I don't think we'll be getting an explanation in season 3 on this one.

 

July 20, 2012 6:28 pm  #15


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Good point Arya, and my thoughts exactly when I first saw the episode. But hey we are asked to accept an awful lot sometimes in the name of a good plot line and I'm usually happy to go along with it. 


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July 20, 2012 9:04 pm  #16


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

I don't think there is a code. A code that could get you anywhere? Seems unlikely. Also Moriarty seemed rather angry about the fact that Sherlock fell for it on the rooftop, not like he was lying. Plus the flashbacks that showed Moriarty's accomplices, what JaneCo pointed out.

Yeah, but I do think that the code is a big deal... not the code itself but what it meant for the whole situation.
And I think Mycroft was convinced that it existed and Sherlock as well, at least until he figured out that tapping = code. (Which means that Moriarty did a lot of convincing work on that.) If he then recognized it as a piece by Bach or still believed that it was a code...that's what we can't be sure about.

 

July 22, 2012 12:58 pm  #17


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

It would fit to Sherlocks charakter, that he knows the key is nonsense and Moriartys crimes are "daylight robberies". But for making him confess to, Sherlock had to get, what Moriartys clients exactly are hunting for.

I think, in the beginning of the rooftop-meeting, Sherlocks plan didn't includes a fall from the rooftop, altought knowing that this was Moriartys will. But he had to change his plan. From the "privacy moment" he knew he would jump.


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edit: foreign-language-problems: grammar, orthography, wrong vocables, breaks
 

July 22, 2012 4:59 pm  #18


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Isnt there a text from Moriaty to to the guy in the tower saying „its showtime“?
I think this supports the theory that there is no code, if Moriaty is just lying why show this text?

And about the code I think Sherlock didnt believe it existed but didnt know what or where it was suppossed to be until John did his fingertapping. John being the Beacon of light again. And Sherlock needed to know what it was to play his game with Moriarty. He immidiatly texted Moriaty after Johns fingertapping.

 

July 22, 2012 6:02 pm  #19


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

I am just going to pose some questions. I think that the answers to these questions will confirm that Sherlock did know he was going to jump and that Molly was in some way integral to his plan.
1. Who chose the location of the denouement with Moriarty? Sherlock chose the location for his meeting with Moriarty. He was specific that it was to be the roof of St. Barts.
2. Who did Sherlock ask for help? Molly is the only person we see Sherlock asking for help. Therefore it is logical to deduce that Molly is in some way integral to the events that happen.
3. Why  did he choose the roof of St. Barts? There must be a logical explanation as to why this location is vital to Sherlock. What does the roof of St. Barts provide? It is an area where control can be exercised. It is a confined area with limited access and egress. It is also an area that Sherlock could have reccied earlier.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

July 22, 2012 8:39 pm  #20


Re: now I'm thinking Sherlock did NOT know he was going to jump!

Good - no, excellent points Davina (tempted to say 'Perfectly sound analysis but I was hoping you'd go deeper'  ) Wish you would actually because this is getting interesting.

Is it possible that on the rooftop Sherlock only goes along with the idea of the code to make sure that it really didn't exist (and perhaps to find out how it was actually done?)


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