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September 9, 2012 2:17 am  #21


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"


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What do 'real' people have, then, in their 'real' lives?

So we go round the sun; if we went round the moon, or round and round the garden like a teddy bear, it wouldn't make any difference.

The consolation of imaginary things is not imaginary consolation. -- Roger Scruton
 

September 9, 2012 2:26 am  #22


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

Arya wrote:

Maybe we'll hear of her in series 3, but I doubt it will be more than a mention. Moftiss won't want to do the same story twice, and I think Moffat just saved her to surprise us. The rest of the production team didn't even know he was going to save her, meaning they didn't have any plans for her as of series 2. I would enjoy a mention of her in series 3, though.

It's Sherlock having the last word again.  Never see her, ever again? Says who, Mycroft? 

Last edited by NW16XE (September 9, 2012 2:27 am)


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What do 'real' people have, then, in their 'real' lives?

So we go round the sun; if we went round the moon, or round and round the garden like a teddy bear, it wouldn't make any difference.

The consolation of imaginary things is not imaginary consolation. -- Roger Scruton
 

September 25, 2012 3:25 am  #23


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

I think Sherlock completely fell for her and she for him. No one makes a daring undercover death-defying rescue dash to Karachi for someone they can't stand. Underneath that "bugger christmas" attitude, he is a romantic. Also, I believe there is more to Irene than meets the eye, btw. She says to him "Everything I said..." and he is too enraged about Moriarty contacting her (either from a feeling of betrayal or fear for her) and shook about by desire-at first to grasp what she meant. And I do hope they had each other at some point. I always thought him flipping the little phone in his hand indicated that ... .

 

September 25, 2012 4:29 pm  #24


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

The Doctor wrote:

This is my contribution of 5 minutes of madness. Just because I can.

Russian Guy: You find madame attractive or no?
Sherlock Holmes: I find her most attractive, for a woman that is.
Russian Guy: No problem then.
Sherlock Holmes: Well there may be a slight one, you see I am not a free man.
Russian Guy: But you are bachelor?
Sherlock Holmes: A bachelor, living with anther bachelor for the last five years. Five very happy years.
Russian Guy: What is it you're trying to tell us?
Sherlock Holmes: Well... I was hoping to avoid the subject.

Haha, what is that from? Sounds brilliant.

As for the other questions raised...no I don't think Sherlock is "in love" with her. He doesn't do falling in love, and I don't think he ever will (not even with John, gasp). He is intrigued and fascinated by her on an intellectual level, and it's perhaps particularly interesting because she's a woman. In the canon, Holmes doesn't have a particuarly high opinion of women, which is why it always makes an impression on him when one of them is remarkable, stunningly beautiful, intelligent etc.

She was working with Moriarty so as a result of that he will most likely now regard her as an enemy rather than a friend, but we all know Sherlock has more enemies than friends anyway, and we know he can have a lot of respect and admiration for his enemies. He rescued her because he wanted to have the last word, to prove that he had won, to prove his general amazingness, and because he thought the world would be a more interesting place with her in it. Also possibly because he is fairly moralistic and believed she doesn't deserve to die.

And the word gay in England can mean a man or a woman, so yes, the interchange between her and John makes perfect sense.


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September 25, 2012 7:59 pm  #25


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

The Doctor wrote:

This is my contribution of 5 minutes of madness. Just because I can.

Russian Guy: You find madame attractive or no?
Sherlock Holmes: I find her most attractive, for a woman that is.
Russian Guy: No problem then.
Sherlock Holmes: Well there may be a slight one, you see I am not a free man.
Russian Guy: But you are bachelor?
Sherlock Holmes: A bachelor, living with anther bachelor for the last five years. Five very happy years.
Russian Guy: What is it you're trying to tell us?
Sherlock Holmes: Well... I was hoping to avoid the subject.

This is from "The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes" - the movie by Billy Wilder.  I'm the process of watching it right now. This joke about their relationship just keeps going and going for another two scenes and gets more and more funny as it grows.


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September 27, 2012 7:51 pm  #26


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

I really admire how they managed NOT to answer all these questions in SiB.
It would have been so easy just to make Sherlock fall in love with Irene and keep everything simple. But to trick the viewers into believing that he loves her and then make them doubt it again and leave it open in the end, that is far more difficult. The writers and the actors did a great job there.


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September 28, 2012 4:10 am  #27


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

I have no doubts about Sherlock's feelings for Miss Adler.

I do have a problem with the world's need to identify closeness and concern for the welfare of anyone of the same sex as "gay". Any man who is not sufficiently cold and tough is thought to be "gay". Anyone who spends a significant amount of time with someone of the same sex is "gay". Why is it necessary that if you love someone, that determines your sexual preference??

Another thread carries a discussion about what John's psychologist is trying to get John to admit after Sherlock's "death". I think it's pretty clear, he needs to admit he loves Sherlock. That has nothing to do with "gay".


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... there's just one more miracle, Sherlock, for me, don't be dead.
 

September 28, 2012 7:09 am  #28


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

I agree with you wholeheartedly. This labelling also has the effect of emotionally stunting some men.


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September 28, 2012 10:17 am  #29


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

Jammeez wrote:

I think it's pretty clear, he needs to admit he loves Sherlock.

It wasn't clear to me.  When I saw that scene the first time, I thought it meant John was having a hard time admitting to himself that Sherlock was dead.


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September 28, 2012 10:26 am  #30


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

Jammeez wrote:

I have no doubts about Sherlock's feelings for Miss Adler.

I do have a problem with the world's need to identify closeness and concern for the welfare of anyone of the same sex as "gay". Any man who is not sufficiently cold and tough is thought to be "gay". Anyone who spends a significant amount of time with someone of the same sex is "gay". Why is it necessary that if you love someone, that determines your sexual preference??

Another thread carries a discussion about what John's psychologist is trying to get John to admit after Sherlock's "death". I think it's pretty clear, he needs to admit he loves Sherlock. That has nothing to do with "gay".

I think I love you too.


I'm so sick of the 'gay thing' and the 'sex thing'. (It's a damn detective show for a start)
I'm amazed and bemused at the amount of time people spend on those supposed aspects of the show instead of on the brilliant stories.

People have a warped sense of what 'love' is these days.

And as Davina says, its all part of the labelling nonsense this world is growing stronger at. The problem with labels is that they sometimes don't show all the ingredients, they fall off at inopportune moments and they can constrict & suffocate what's inside.


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Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

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Robert McCloskey
 

September 28, 2012 12:43 pm  #31


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

Exactly.

Yes, Sherli, he was having a hard time admitting Sherlock was dead, but he did so in the opening; that statement was the hook. I don't see why John's Dr. would be trying to get him to say it again.

Oh, wait! This isn't the thread for that discussion!

Last edited by Jammeez (September 28, 2012 1:30 pm)


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... there's just one more miracle, Sherlock, for me, don't be dead.
 

September 28, 2012 12:56 pm  #32


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

Yeah, this is from a different thread, but I basically took it to mean he never got the chance to tell Sherlock how much he really cared about him (as a friend). Whether that would have involved him using the word 'love' or not, is another matter, but certainly they never really discussed how much they meant to each other openly when Sherlock was 'alive', and a lot of people always regret not having done this when it is too late!

(sorry, off topic.  )


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September 28, 2012 1:13 pm  #33


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

I just watched Sherlock 'SiB' after a long time of just reading the canon.. anyway, I never picked up before the peculiar/annoyed/.. look Sherlock is throwing towards John as he interrupts the 'defrocking' scene. The interruption was too interruptive, it seems. Hilarious!

 

October 3, 2012 10:56 pm  #34


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

I didn't watch the scene with Irene not wearing any clothes, so I was wondering, what happened? I really don't like how this season in general depicts Sherlock as a weak person, especially in this episode.  It was a bit of a downer after the first season, but I think they'll bring it up to par again this next season.


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"Geniuses are often obsessive, and their clarity of intellectual insight can be depressing and isolating: by nature geniuses march to a different drum." - Ron Bracey
 
 

October 4, 2012 5:42 am  #35


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

The second series is about Sherlock becoming more humanised, therefore it deals with three BIG issues: love, fear and death. They show that deep down he is human, like the rest of us, not just the arrogant, anti-social genius of series 1.


Last edited by Davina (October 4, 2012 5:43 am)


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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October 4, 2012 7:59 am  #36


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

The key in this scene with naked Irene was that he couldn't conclude anything from her, like he can when he looks at anybody else.  He got worried and kind of checked himself being okay by looking at John. With John everything went as usual. He was able to conclude seveal things by just looking at him.. But looking at Irene always ended up just in "???".
Assuming that it happened the first time in his life he must have been really upset then and notice something special about Irene.


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October 4, 2012 12:38 pm  #37


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

Laughing at myself because of my first inclination to go for the jugular at horserider's comment above. I don't agree, either with Sherlock being "weak" in the second series or that the series is subpar. But Davina kind of covered that without the need to attack. It's a natural progression in character development.

Last edited by Jammeez (October 4, 2012 12:50 pm)


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... there's just one more miracle, Sherlock, for me, don't be dead.
 

October 4, 2012 12:57 pm  #38


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

I read somewhere that Benedict himself wished Sherlock to become a bit more human in series 2. I don't think it makes him weak. But then I've always been a romantic. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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October 4, 2012 3:22 pm  #39


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

horserider99 wrote:

I didn't watch the scene with Irene not wearing any clothes, so I was wondering, what happened? I really don't like how this season in general depicts Sherlock as a weak person, especially in this episode.  It was a bit of a downer after the first season, but I think they'll bring it up to par again this next season.

Why did you not watch that scene? It's very good, and explains exactly what it is that fascinates Sherlock about Irene, as Mattlocked already explained.

I assume from your self description that you a fairly young person, so I understand why you might consider Sherlock's behaviour in certain scenes of Scandal and Reichenbach to be signs of weakness.
But please remember is that being a strong person doesn't mean being right every time, it means knowing when you're wrong and admiting that you've made a mistake.
When you fall, when you lose, when you have nobody left who believes in you, but find the strengh to get back up and try again, that is truly worthy of respect.

Also, a story about a man who is always right, never makes mistakes, never changes and always wins would be more like a children's comic book story, wouldn't it?
Finally, the original Sherlock Holmes from ACD's books was not infallible, so why should "our" modern Sherlock be?


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October 5, 2012 8:08 pm  #40


Re: "Sherlock fell for Irene"

Does infallibility come into it?
I'm still uncertain of Sherlock's feelings for Irene.  But he at least liked and respected her.
He saved her in the end, because she didn't deserve to die.
However, I do not want to see her again!


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