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December 29, 2012 8:43 am  #241


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

It is of course possible that Mycroft may have commented upon the silences and violin 'performances'. He does say to John that living with Sherlock must be hellish. Sherlock is oblivious to 'odd' behaviour. Had he not been he might have got to the flat well before John and tidied it up rather than realising later that some people might think that it was in a bit of a mess.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

December 29, 2012 8:57 am  #242


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

I love the fact that he tidies up at all... I saw his stuff as an 'organised mess'. It's everywhere but I bet you if you asked him to find something in amongst the clutter he could pinpoint exactly where it is. He seems oblivious to his 'odd' behaviour until he has something to compare it to - John's behaviour.

Not exactly 'bromance at first sight' but that was a lot of the fun for the first episode for me, watching that connection form between them.


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'Non Solum Ingenii Verum Etiam Virtutis'
                
 

December 29, 2012 9:05 am  #243


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

I absolutely LOVE when Sherlock takes John to show him the flat. He's like a big kid.
To me it really is like:  Look Mrs Hudson, I think I may have found a friend.
He so wants John to like the flat and come and play with all his toys!
Incidentally, give the guy a break.  He was still ' moving in'.
His moving in flat is tidier than my living in house!


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December 29, 2012 10:19 am  #244


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

kazza474 wrote:

The problem I have with that way of thinking is that Sherlock would not feel as if there is anything 'odd'; about himself.
He lists things that others have commented on but after that, why would he think anything else needs to be said about himself?
In his way of thinking, people are who they are. He shows he doesn't have a wide knowledge (at that stage) of what affects others, so how could he explain to someone the traits he has that are 'odd'?

It appears that Sherlock basically worked alone beforehand. Yes, at one stage he does say "I need an assistant" and " Anderson won't work with me" but I would take those two statements to infer that previously he used someone from the police force as his assistant on cases.

The only real reason he has for wanting a flat mate is the share the rent; no suggestion of wanting friendship at all.
Again, people are interpretting Sherlock's 'needs and wants' using their own as a guideline. Sherlock is NOT like you; his 'needs & wants' would be way off what your are.
Let the character define his personality and go with that, as hard as it may appear to be.

I think the same, basically, but Sherlock is not a child, he is in his thirties, he should have encountered enough other people by that time and remember how they reacted to his eccentricities.
On the other hand, he's still not very good at presenting himself in a socially acceptable way, it seems. Otherwise he would not have mentioned the riding crop.


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

February 9, 2013 6:13 am  #245


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Hello - I thought I'd throw my own 2 cents in. I see John Watson and Sherlock Holmes as two broken men who need each other.

Sherlock has little to no understanding of appropriate emotional-social behavior. He is so intent on his mind working overtime that "sentiment" just gets in the way. This is a trait that, to some degree, he shares with his brother Mycroft, making one wonder what their childhood must have been like. John provides Sherlock with a social and moral conscience. He acts as a GPS for the genius when he gets so lost inside his own mind that he forgets such simple things that the rest of the world takes for granted, such as sleeping and eating. John often acts as a guide to appropriate social behavior which seem to be quite beyond Sherlock. John acts as protector, and guardian in some ways, brother or confidant in other ways. He seems to be uniquely capable of taking in Sherlock's acerbic rhetoric and seeing past the barbs to hear the truth of what he is trying to convey. Basically John is Sherlock's filter, since he operates without one, hence the reason most people tell Sherlock to piss off.

John Watson is also broken, but in a very different manner. Somehow being sent home from the war in Afghanistan due to the injury he suffered destroyed his confidence in not only himself, but the world in which he lives. We see him dreaming of combat in the opening sequence and waking with a start. He is panting and upset and by observation he looks as though these images are haunting him. Mycroft Holmes on the other hand feels that John actually misses the war. I think that Mycroft only has it half right.
 
The war changed John as it would change anyone. He felt the most alive while in that combat situation because he needed to stay sharp and focused in order to survive. Now that he is back home in England with no war to keep his mind working on a survival basis, he doesn't know what to do with himself. He doesn't have the need for adrenaline surging through him to deal with day to day living and so the horrors he saw now have free rein over his subconscious. In some ways I see John as being similar to Sherlock in that he needs distractions to keep his own mind from eating him alive.

Meeting Sherlock threw John into a whirlwind of strange activities. He is clearly intrigued and impressed with Sherlock's cognitive prowess. It seems to me that Sherlock acted as a puzzle that John needed to understand. The man is maddening, but at the same time he is remarkable. That mirrors John’s own situation in some respect. John needs the action of war in order to deal with the traumatic experiences of war.
 
Sherlock knew from the beginning that John's limp was psychosomatic, but rather than give him a hard time about it, he simply treated it as though it didn't actually exist. Running through the streets of London was proof enough that the cane wasn't necessary and it was something that John ended up proving to himself with a bit of a nudge from Sherlock.
 
Sherlock needs John to keep him based in reality which is precisely what John needs. - To be needed. I believe that need to be needed is what drove John to become a doctor. Sherlock’s need for John as a stabilizing force in his life It isn't some weak attempt to placate the soldier's ego. That kind of false necessity would be seen through by the dimmest of minds.

Sherlock would be lost without John's constant pragmatic presence at his side keeping his head out of its own mind space, and John would be lost without Sherlock dragging him out of his own head and into an action packed life that gets his blood pumping and keeps his mind focused on something other than his own insecurities. This mutual need facilitated an instant bonding between the two of them that grew stronger with every passing day.
 
These two men complete each other on a basic level that has nothing to do with physical romance. This is the main reason I can not really understand why so many people see them as a couple. The relationship between John Watson and Sherlock Holmes is closer to the kind of relationship we see between Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee than the relation we would see between a romantic couple.
 
I have found over the years that many young people do not have a clear understanding that two people whether the same sex or opposite sexes can have an extremely close and loving relationship that is completely platonic. Romantic interest is only one side or one facet of love, but it does seem to be the side of love that almost all younger people focus on. Perhaps that is because as we grow older and experience more of life and relationships we learn that a physical romance is not always necessary between two people.
 
I wrote an article about this very issue a few years back. If anyone is interested I would be happy to dig it out of mothballs and post it.
 


"I may be on the side of the angels,
but don't think for one second that I am one of them."
 

February 9, 2013 8:40 am  #246


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Thank you for your contribution.
I will add  a possible solution to the poser you present:
The Media and popular culture constantly bombard us with sexual imagery and romantic ' conquests' seem to score points...
I hate soppy romance.
For me, Sherlock was a breath of fesh air and I don't want to see any romance or sex- unless necessary for the story.


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February 9, 2013 9:49 am  #247


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

@Alicel and Besleybean... I love you two (in a strictly platonic sense of the word you understand )

I understand how people can see them as a couple in their own headcanons. I have nothing against the JohnLock-ers of this world! (In fact I can appreciate the well made stuff as much as the next person.) But when I look at the show itself this platonic relationship is the only kind of relationship that I can see.


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'Non Solum Ingenii Verum Etiam Virtutis'
                
 

February 9, 2013 11:01 am  #248


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Hey, thanks Alicel for speaking my mind 
I was about to write something similiar, 'cause I see them also not as couple for the same reasons. 

But there's another point which is also very important to me.
I often compare John and Sherlock's friendship to the friendship of mine and my best friend (ah, I'm so proud of it) and this is why friendship holds more worth for me. There's a very thin line between love and hate and this is what makes relationships so... dangerous. It's so easy to switch from love to hate. Real friendship is just there. Normally it doesn't switch to hate, if it was real. So for me friendship is more important. 

I also think that all the allusions were inappropriate, if John and Sherlock were a couple for real.
Well, I'm familiar with this problem since me and my best friend are sometimes mistaken for a couple.   But we laugh about it then, instead of yielding. 
 

Last edited by Mary Me (February 9, 2013 11:18 am)


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"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



 

February 9, 2013 11:18 am  #249


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Well we know they're not a couple. in the strict sense of the term.
Incidentally, I still think we will see John married, or at least in a committed relationship.
I can only repeat what I keep saying(and yes it is a personal thing), in my dreams/ fantasies: Johnlock.
But for Canon/BBC Sherlock: bromance;  a close, loving friendship.

Last edited by besleybean (February 9, 2013 11:19 am)


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 9, 2013 11:19 am  #250


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Oh I would love to see John married


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"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



 

February 9, 2013 11:19 am  #251


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

I certainly wouldn't.  But I accept it may happen.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 9, 2013 11:26 am  #252


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

AliceI wrote:

...These two men complete each other on a basic level that has nothing to do with physical romance. This is the main reason I cannot really understand why so many people see them as a couple... I have found over the years that many young people do not have a clear understanding that two people whether the same sex or opposite sexes can have an extremely close and loving relationship that is completely platonic. Romantic interest is only one side or one facet of love, but it does seem to be the side of love that almost all younger people focus on. Perhaps that is because as we grow older and experience more of life and relationships we learn that a physical romance is not always necessary between two people....

I am in my 60s, so I was "younger people" a long, long time ago. Liking/enjoying the idea of romance and a physical relationship between Sherlock and John (fan fic, fan art) has nothing to do with age and stage of life. You are making broad, sweeping generalizations-- you have a right to do so, but they are only your opinion. Hey, it takes all kinds; if Johnlock doesn't it do it for you, it's certainly easy enough to avoid the fan fic and fan art that features it. But please leave us who do enjoy that fictional aspect of their relationship to do so in peace and without judgment.
 

 

February 9, 2013 11:27 am  #253


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

... but then he would move out of Baker Street. Naahhh, maybe I will not see him married. 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



 

February 9, 2013 11:29 am  #254


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Tho I've often said, it could provide some very amusing story lines:
Sherlock turning up at(ahem) inconvenient moments!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 9, 2013 11:30 am  #255


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Mary Me wrote:

... but then he would move out of Baker Street. Naahhh, maybe I will not see him married. 

You will see whatever it is the powers that be for the show have determined that you will see in this next season, as will we all. Like it or lump it. But I presume that if we've liked it so far, we will continue to do so. No reason to fear that they'll change anything basic about Sherlock, John, or the dynamic between the two of them.

 

February 9, 2013 11:31 am  #256


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Well quite.  I think we're all ok with that.  Obvioulsy marriage/moving out, won't alter the bromance one iota.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 9, 2013 11:36 am  #257


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

ancientsgate wrote:

AliceI wrote:

...These two men complete each other on a basic level that has nothing to do with physical romance. This is the main reason I cannot really understand why so many people see them as a couple... I have found over the years that many young people do not have a clear understanding that two people whether the same sex or opposite sexes can have an extremely close and loving relationship that is completely platonic. Romantic interest is only one side or one facet of love, but it does seem to be the side of love that almost all younger people focus on. Perhaps that is because as we grow older and experience more of life and relationships we learn that a physical romance is not always necessary between two people....

I am in my 60s, so I was "younger people" a long, long time ago. Liking/enjoying the idea of romance and a physical relationship between Sherlock and John (fan fic, fan art) has nothing to do with age and stage of life. You are making broad, sweeping generalizations-- you have a right to do so, but they are only your opinion. Hey, it takes all kinds; if Johnlock doesn't it do it for you, it's certainly easy enough to avoid the fan fic and fan art that features it. But please leave us who do enjoy that fictional aspect of their relationship to do so in peace and without judgment.
 

I'm with you on that, AG!


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!




                                                                                                                  
 

February 9, 2013 11:43 am  #258


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Possibly this is me being stupid again and missing soemthing.
Buit I didn't see anybody criticising fan art/fic/ head canon.
Just commenting on how the show is written/directed/acted.

Last edited by besleybean (February 9, 2013 11:43 am)


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 9, 2013 11:54 am  #259


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

ancientsgate wrote:

AliceI wrote:

...These two men complete each other on a basic level that has nothing to do with physical romance. This is the main reason I cannot really understand why so many people see them as a couple... I have found over the years that many young people do not have a clear understanding that two people whether the same sex or opposite sexes can have an extremely close and loving relationship that is completely platonic. Romantic interest is only one side or one facet of love, but it does seem to be the side of love that almost all younger people focus on. Perhaps that is because as we grow older and experience more of life and relationships we learn that a physical romance is not always necessary between two people....

I am in my 60s, so I was "younger people" a long, long time ago. Liking/enjoying the idea of romance and a physical relationship between Sherlock and John (fan fic, fan art) has nothing to do with age and stage of life. You are making broad, sweeping generalizations-- you have a right to do so, but they are only your opinion. Hey, it takes all kinds; if Johnlock doesn't it do it for you, it's certainly easy enough to avoid the fan fic and fan art that features it. But please leave us who do enjoy that fictional aspect of their relationship to do so in peace and without judgment.
 

 
I am somewhat confused as to why you think I am judging you. This is an observation that I have made over some number of years. It has no bearing on my opinion of people who like slash. I personally love the character Captain Jack Harkness.

I am someone who prefers the characters I read about to remain in cannon. That is where much slash diverts me. It would be the same if Moriarty began saving orphans and John Watson began robbing banks of the weekend. Those behaviors are out of character for them so that is why I pretty much avoid AU stories. For me in most cases slash falls into that same catagory. It is OOC.

I fell in love with these characters as they were written, so why would I change them?

I am sorry that you took offense to my opinion. It was not meant to slam you or anyone else. It is simply that - my opinion and observations that I have made over some number of years living on the planet.


"I may be on the side of the angels,
but don't think for one second that I am one of them."
 

February 9, 2013 12:09 pm  #260


Re: Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

I confess I laughed out loud at the mental images of John and Moriarty!

Last edited by besleybean (February 9, 2013 12:09 pm)


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