besleybean wrote:

BBC Sherlock was NOT written to facilitate slash fantasies, that happened quite by accident.

Such a position seems to contradict Gatiss, Moffat as well as Freeman's interview soundbits?!

Look as I have said plenty of times before, my opinion that it was not initially the writers' intent to start a 'movement' for a gay relationship to flourish comes from interviews and blogs they did very early on. They denied that they put in those throw away lines expecting it to create such a reaction.
Now within the posts on this forum there will be references to those interviews. Or you can seek them out for yourselves, they were circa 2010.

Here's a thread discussing the 'Johnlock' thing on Twitter. Pity Moff deleted his Twitter account, I am not sure we can acess the archives of such an account.
Moftiss » Not married

And as I said, as the series grew in fame & attracted that kind of attention, they soon stopped negative comments about it.
Whatever sells really.

As far as this thread being a safe place, everywhere on this forum is as safe as you allow it to be; just like anywhere online if you interpret rather than read the words you can become very paranoid in no time at all.

AFAIK, none of we Johnlockers think they're actually hooking up behind the scenes in the show canon. At least, I don't. I think John is telling the truth when he says he's not gay, and Sherlock is telling the truth when he says his body is just transport, while he clearly shows how he can barely manage to feed it, much less use it to express itself sexually. And his mute stance when someone starts in about him and John speaks volumes-- if I just wait long enough, they'll shut up about this nonsense, and we can get on to the important stuff.

Speaking only for me, Johnlock is for fan fic and fan art, and for my own little fantasies. I don't think they were in a closeted sexual relationship in the original canon, and I don't think they're in one in the BBC canon. What we're seeing is deep, abiding friendship between two very attractive, smart, heroic men, and those two lovely packages of male-ness make [some of] us ladies swoon. We can't have them, and we're not keen on any other women having them, so in our imaginations, [some of us] set them up with each other-- not in the show, but in our heads and in fan fic and fan art.

Not sure why I subscribe to this thread. Now I've been called paranoid, added to my new-found status as an alley cat who indulges in childish trash. Hmmm. Gee, what fun. Not.

besleybean wrote:

....As Steven has said: why does it all have to be about sex?  A relationship is who you want to spend the night with, love is who you want to spend your life with...that's my favourite quote from him.

Sometimes it's both.  One does not preclude the other.

ancientsgate wrote:

AFAIK, none of we Johnlockers think they're actually hooking up behind the scenes in the show canon. At least, I don't. I think John is telling the truth when he says he's not gay, and Sherlock is telling the truth when he says his body is just transport, while he clearly shows how he can barely manage to feed it, much less use it to express itself sexually. And his mute stance when someone starts in about him and John speaks volumes-- if I just wait long enough, they'll shut up about this nonsense, and we can get on to the important stuff.

Speaking only for me, Johnlock is for fan fic and fan art, and for my own little fantasies. I don't think they were in a closeted sexual relationship in the original canon, and I don't think they're in one in the BBC canon. What we're seeing is deep, abiding friendship between two very attractive, smart, heroic men, and those two lovely packages of male-ness make [some of] us ladies swoon. We can't have them, and we're not keen on any other women having them, so in our imaginations, [some of us] set them up with each other-- not in the show, but in our heads and in fan fic and fan art.

@Aggie: I just wanted to tell you that you expressed exactly my opinion about the meaning of the whole Johnlock thing. I asked myself what might be the reason for this and came to the conclusion that it's about women adoring these guys and wanting them to stay together instead of straying somewhere else to find their happiness. And the easiest way to have them stay together is to make them fall in love with each other. Obviously.

I'm not sure about the female percentage in this fandom but I'm sure it's quite high and the relationship between Sherlock and John (in any form) is one of the main reasons for its appeal. 

I agree with both of you. These two people together are just so perfect, the thought of anyone else entering their world is almost a crime. And, while I don't subscribe to the romantic angle, I do believe they are all they each need, completing each other.     John can have his occasional fling, but home is always 221B.

Without connection to the discussion which is on now-I had yesterday a long time a discussion with ny father about John and Sherlock, I tried to wrote down my opinion yesterday... Don't expect too much I was in a very strange mood :-)
Yeah. Then... The question about our beloved friends... A great one which has very different point of views (what is good, of course!)
Yes, I'm one of these little Johnlock-Lovers... But-all of it are just fantasies. Dreams.
I mean, there are the things I SEE and the things I WANT to see... All these Johnlock-Moments are just symbols for a very deep friendship. What's still good!

The thing is that Sherlock is a psychopath. Well we know he's not one at all ('iIm not a psychopath I'm a high functioning sociopath'), but... Hey just LOOK at him, he IS insane, of course he is! And Sally is completely right while warning John... But that's the point! John. Without him Sherlock would lose the floor under his feet. Then Sally would be right. But she's not, because John is there. And he keeps alive the human part of Sherlock Holmes.

People never tried to understand Sherlock, no one ever saw him as a human (and he's so clearly one of them). Sherlock himself try to show them that he's not human at all. But what would he be if not human? An alien? Od course not!
Okay, Miss Hudson and Lestrade see a man behind the brilliant detective. Sometimes. And Molly, perhaps. But for John Sherlock is just a man, a man who make mistakes and do silly things. A human! Poor John often drives crazy because of his insane flatmate, but he would never believe someone that Sherlock isn't the man he thinks he is. He's the only person who knows Sherlock, who at least tried to understand him. 
And that's the thing he makes him to Sherlocks friend. Provably the only one.

If I look at Sherlock, it's not such a big thing to be his friend. It is because he's so mean, yes. But, I mean, he doesn't have friends (except John). A little word like 'amazing' - what came from the very heart-lets him completely keel over. How often did I say things like this to people around me? Not just to my best friends! But for Sherlock that's great a very big thing!

Sherlock probably didn't want to have friends, but I think that he didn't know really what a 'friend' is.
In 'feelings' Sherlock is like a little, lost child. When he explain the word 'love' to Irene Adler he want to show that he knows the meaning of that word... But he doesn't know it. He explain all on the scientistic level. That there are a thing called 'feelings' going with it-he just has no idea. He probably knows the standard things like 'bored' :-) , 'sad', 'excited' etc. But that's all. And that's not enough!
And so he's completely overstrained with these little, nice signals of friendship John Watson gives him. With the time he develop something like feelings. Sherlock is only human, and if someone shows a human how to feel, he can learn it. And so could Sherlock, too, because thanks to his friend -John Watson- he knows what it feels like to be losing a person which has a big place in your heart (I'm thinking on the Reichenbach Fall. Even if all wasn't true, Sherlock's showing a lot of emotions, too much for the person he is). Sherlock gave his life for John, even if he survived he gave his identity for him (he 'killed' his own image for his friend(s), and that's a big thing, too). The tears in his eyes are not joked. These are feelings, feelings you only have for a person you like, you're going to die for (not at all, but still!). Sherlock is acting terribly human, a thing Watson shows him in a certain way to do.

Why do little words like 'I'd be lost without my blogger!', make us think that there's so much between Sherlock and John? Because these words are meaning so much when a person like Sherlock say it. If I would say a similar thing to my friends they wouldn't think that there's a big thing behind that all. But-hell!-I'm talking about a man who never ever felt something like friendship!
Sherlock knows about all in a scientific way. Of these things, John doesn't know anything. Ask them for the meaning of whatever and they'll tell you a logical report and a breathtaking story.
But John has a golden heart and strong feelings. Together they're a very strong team. They're so different that it was so great they met one day. For both.

And there's another point. They need each other.
When we saw John in the very first scene we see a broken man who has lost the connection to his life. But when he first meet Sherlock we see already something glowing in his eyes. Of course he's very confused and all this, but he doesn't think long about the sharing of a flat. Sherlock gives John not just his 'healthy' (psychosomatic limp) again: more important, he gives him the will to take his life again.
And then Sherlock. John not only helped Sherlock in several cases (the great game, without John's help Sherlock had never known about the tv-star-woman whose name I've forgotten now :-) ), without John Sherlock would exactly be what Sally said , I mean, in the future. He would loss the connection to a normal world... And get into prison very soon. What'd be a pity because he's a good man, even if Lestrade can't see it yet. ;-)

I like difficult characters. I did it before Sherlock, too. He is one of them. A very great one. The greatest :-) House was one of the others. But almost all of them have a incredibly normal, big-hearted person at her side without them they couldn't exist-at least here balance of insanity would not be in balance anymore and they'll end as very deeply psychopaths. For Sherlock this person called 'friend' is John, for House it is/was Wilson.

Good, I'm still a fan of this little, lovely Johnlock-monents... And so I'm very curious how they're going together again. I think a huge or something in this style would fit in very well. At least they're friends. And friends huge each other. What also would be great: John hugging Sherlock and he's just like 'oh my god what's happening now?', that would be so typical for them both and would confirm the deep and strong - but never ordinary or simple - friendship they have.

Sometimes I catch myself thinking about Sherlock and John going more closer together, but then I look at them and must shook my head. They are so close already, if we look at Sherlock, the man who don't like other people (only if they're dead-that's a very different thing, then! ;-) ) and calls himself a 'sociopath'. All this facts together are fascinating me about how close they really are. And that's just wonderful. It's not an easy friendship ( just look at the poor little Johnnyboy when Sherlock's being Sherlock in a very hard way! ), but still it's a deep and heart-taking one. And that's the amazing thing on it. This things we only shake our heads and feel terribly sorry for John but admire him for his patience... And then there are this very nice scenes like the 'I'd be lost without my blogger'-one; and these are probably the things that make John think that's all worth it (forgetting the point that he owe him so much!)
Oh god, when I'm talking this way about them both I feel like I'm talking about a mother and her terribly crazy son :-)

I want to come to an end now... But it's not easy :-)
I so like this question and I never can't stop talk when I started once like lelli often suffer under ;-)

Well, these are my weird thoughts about our great heroes (which of course exist! ;-) ). It's only my opinion and probably not as 'useful' as other ones (there are great inputs in here!). I'm sorry for mistakes, I always write so much absurd things and then all together with a fast-beating heart :-), that just can't go alright ;-)

PS: After have read it all again I admire all the persons who were able to read the whole text and understood the half part of it... ;-)

besleybean wrote:

.... Sherlock Holmes.I do enjoy his brilliance, rationality and rejection of the trivial.

And the cheekbones, eyes, lithe frame and that good coat don't hurt either.... *smile*

Thanks for typing it all up, pitagor, it is a good analysis.

I think, in the beginning, the start of ASiP, Sherlock is really looking for a friend or at least a colleague. It's not as if John is imposing himself on him. To the contrary, Sherlock is making an effort to keep him as a flatmate. The fact that John is an army doctor is quite important, I guess. Sherlock deduces that immediately when they meet, and concludes that John could be useful to help him with his work because he is used to seeing danger, violence, dead bodies, injuries and so on, probably even likes and misses it. Being a doctor, he must also be used to dealing with people who behave strangely because of pain, shock, injury, addiction or psychological problems. So if anybody can get along with Sherlock, it has to be an army doctor. In ASiP, Sherlock does quite a lot to impress John and it works.
What he does not expect, I think, is that John not only tolerates living with Sherlock, not only admires his intelligence, but that he also likes Sherlock as a person. Over the following episodes, Sherlock opens up more and more. It starts when he explains to John how his brain works (deletes unimportant information, can't stand boredom etc) and John accepts that although it seems a little strange to him. I mean, Sherlock would never say things like that to people like Anderson or even Lestrade - he rather tries to scare them off by claiming he was a sociopath.
Later on, he even talks to John about more personal things (thinks he doesn't have friends, was scared when he saw the hound, usually supresses feelings and so on). It is a slow process because Sherlock is not used to it, but in the end he has to admit that he has not only one friend, but in fact there are several people who really like him, not only as a brilliant detective, but also as a person. John is the one who showed him that, who "opened his eyes", so to say.
And then Reichenbach comes and Sherlock has to leave. How sad.

besleybean wrote:

We need The Reunion!

In time... Lots of time.