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June 5, 2018 8:23 am  #8181


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

An interesting article (summary of a podcast, I think) concerning TJLC, fandom and the creators. It seems this is only part one so I am looking forward to future parts!

https://slate.com/culture/2018/06/the-johnlock-conspiracy-sherlock-fans-disagree-with-the-shows-creators-about-holmes-and-watsons-relationship.html">Who Gets To Decide if a Fictional Character is Gay?

(I had to open the link in Explorer for it to work, because in Chrome, the "Accept"-button didn't work).


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 5, 2018 12:14 pm  #8182


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I read that yesterday.  Very interesting.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/736x/aa/2b/35/aa2b352725f4c944599a3ea17cbfe44e.jpg    https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb0f8896a79d19602eeaea0254ff5ccd/tumblr_n5ztxjGDB61stgn3no1_500.jpg
 
 

June 5, 2018 12:30 pm  #8183


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

For me it does not work either in Opera nor in Chrome. No idea why. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/depressed.png


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 5, 2018 1:34 pm  #8184


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

For me it does not work either in Opera nor in Chrome. No idea why. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/depressed.png

Try Internet Explorer. I never use Explorer, but had to resort to it for this one. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 5, 2018 1:39 pm  #8185


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Thank you, but I use a Mac, so no Internet Explorer. Maybe I will find a way or it pops up somewhere else. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 5, 2018 2:18 pm  #8186


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Not about the article but something I have been looking for and now stumbled upon by chance. This gets never old and the funny thing is that the text mentions exactly the things people have been going on about for years. They even quote Oscar Wilde:

http://up.picr.de/32891937jq.jpg

 

Last edited by SusiGo (June 5, 2018 2:18 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 5, 2018 3:30 pm  #8187


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It doesn't work in Firefox either.  How strange!  If it's any help, I don't think there's much in the article that we don't already know and it kind of stops short, but does link to a much longer and more detailed podcast at http://traffic.megaphone.fm/SLT1234528517.mp3 .  Hopefully that link will work even if people can't get through to the article? 

 

June 5, 2018 7:12 pm  #8188


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I've listened to the podcast now, and thought it was very good!  It seemed to me to be balanced and I like the ending.  I also came across another link which seems to work in Firefox so might be worth a try!  It doesn't have the full article but does have the podcast:
http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/decoder_ring/2018/06/decoder_ring_explores_how_a_conspiracy_theory_about_a_gay_sherlock_holmes.html

 

June 6, 2018 6:17 am  #8189


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think there is something wrong with my link. If you go to slate.com and search for "fictional character gay", it's the first link in the search results.

But, yeah, there wasn't anything new so far. It seems mostly to be an introduction to TJLC to those new. But it seemed to be part 1 of a series of podcasts about this, so I am very much looking forward to the upcoming ones.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 6, 2018 7:16 am  #8190


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Here is another link. I have not managed to listen yet but it sounds interesting, an academic discussion on the subject of queerbaiting including BBC Sherlock as an example: 

http://henryjenkins.org/blog/2018/6/5/how-do-you-like-it-so-far-podcast-emily-andrea-maureen-ryan-and-louisa-stein-discuss-fans-producers-and-queer-baiting 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 6, 2018 9:44 am  #8191


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Thanks for that podcast, Suzi!  Really interesting discussion, but it did stray quite a way off Sherlock at times (unfortunately, I haven't watched the other shows it talked about). 

It does seem to be a shame that it was this show in particular that people latched on to.  The podcast kept mentioning that 14 year old LGBTQ people need to see themselves on screen, but Sherlock and John were never going to be that, were they?   Whereas in Doctor Who there was a much younger, openly lesbian main character, which was worlds better in terms of representation, but it didn't seem to attract the same following (or maybe I missed it).  

To be fair to Moftiss, and the rest of the team, I do think they were clear from the very beginning that it was a friendship. 

 

June 6, 2018 10:28 am  #8192


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think we have been over this very often in this thread. I know what Mofftiss have said again and again. The problem is that for many people what they did in the show was perceived as being in contrast to what they said. IMO this is at the core of the problem.  

I am a writer by profession. Let's assume I write a novel and a certain percentage of my readers perceive a character as, say, fascist. I can tell them as often as I like that I did not plan to write a fascist character but as long as people (and quite a lot of them) perceive the character this way, I must at least go and think about it long and hard. Which is what Mofftiss in my opinion have refused to do. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 6, 2018 11:49 am  #8193


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I see what you mean, Susi. But I think there are many factors at play here  (which in itself makes this very interesting, I think). How we interpret at text/show/anything depends on quite a lot - our cultural background, our personal background, our experiences, our preferences, our knowledge base... None of these variables are controllable by the author. 

For instance, there were quite a few back in the HP-days that were convinced Harry and Hermione would become a couple. For J.K.Rowling and for probably the majority of the fans (including me) it was obvious from very early on that Ron and Hermione would end up together. So even when Rowling put, what she described as "anvil-sized hints" into the books about R&H, quite a big portion of the fanbase were convinced about H&H. 

Because when you have a preference, you can so easily interpret what you find so that it correlates with your already existing world-view. This is the psychological basis for just about all belief in conspiracy theories, for instance. And if you think H&H match together better than R&H, you can easily interpret what is a close friendship into something more. Same as with Johnlock.

That doesn't mean that there weren't scenes that were open to interpretation. But "open to interpretation" means exactly that - that the scene could be interpreted both as Johnlock and as "just friends". And when the creators then repeatedly says "just friends" is the right interpretation (according to where they are going in the show itself), then I don't see the problem with it. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 6, 2018 1:43 pm  #8194


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think some people saw it on screen, but my bet is that they were in a minority.  It was pretty much established in the first episode that John liked women and Sherlock was married to his work ... which is the way it went for the rest of the episodes.   I felt that we were quite clearly shown that they were not attracted to each other in that way.  And some of the things in the podcast, the toplock/bottomlock thing in particular, really did seem to be just fantasy. 

But I don't even think that these (almost!) middle-aged, middle class, straight or heavily closeted, white male characters would be good representation for teenage LGBT women (the podcasts mainly talked about women), even if the writers had decided to get them together. 

And I also think it's a shame if writers are expected to be uber-careful about any reference to same sex attraction for fear of being accused of queer-baiting.  For instance, one of the criticisms was that Sherlock came back to life to save John.  I think it would be very sad if this kind of love is not allowed to be shown, unless it's "romantic".   (And also, in terms of the writing, that really was the most pressing reason for Sherlock to come back - he thought John was in danger from Mary.  Should it really have been written as him coming back because he hasn't managed to take down Magnussen, for instance, just to avoid any possible hint of an attraction to John?). 
 

 

June 12, 2018 6:11 am  #8195


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Wow, people are outdoing themselves lately! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


https://78.media.tumblr.com/7086eca50affe335594355110310c9a2/tumblr_p9z8w9U0Os1th86yqo1_1280.jpg


Details about the book:

https://iamjohnlocked4life.tumblr.com/post/174676644200/iamjohnlocked4life-sherlock-holmes-collection
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

June 12, 2018 6:42 am  #8196


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, it's John and Henry, not John and Sherlock.  Or does Sherlock get involved later on, in a love triangle? I wonder why it's an audiobook rather than print/ebook?  Maybe just because there is plenty of written erotica, but audio versions are lacking. 

 

June 12, 2018 7:03 am  #8197


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, Germany is getting a queer Holmes audio book. Amazing times to live in. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 12, 2018 5:17 pm  #8198


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It got me thinking, actually, about how much pornography/erotica is visual (film, video, text, photography, painting, etc.).  I'm sure audiobooks are great news for people who have visual difficulties or who prefer to listen rather than see/read.  Maybe they're also fun for brightening up the commute to work!   Or as a bedtime story. 

Probably quite a lot rests on whether the reader has an appealing voice! 
 

 

June 13, 2018 4:19 pm  #8199


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

It got me thinking, actually, about how much pornography/erotica is visual (film, video, text, photography, painting, etc.).  I'm sure audiobooks are great news for people who have visual difficulties or who prefer to listen rather than see/read.  Maybe they're also fun for brightening up the commute to work!   Or as a bedtime story. 

Probably quite a lot rests on whether the reader has an appealing voice! 
 

Now desperately fantasizing about Ben reading erotica aloud.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/736x/aa/2b/35/aa2b352725f4c944599a3ea17cbfe44e.jpg    https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb0f8896a79d19602eeaea0254ff5ccd/tumblr_n5ztxjGDB61stgn3no1_500.jpg
 
 

June 13, 2018 5:57 pm  #8200


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

That did occur to me!

 

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