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March 9, 2018 4:28 pm  #261


Re: TLD Headscratchers

It is incredibly outdated!  But it is still used a lot today (in fact, I think it's probably rare that it's not used).   And they are all doctors, of course.  It's the same basic training.  It's just the titles that are different.  Surgeons are usually Mr/Miss/Mrs (although they were previously Dr).  It's a mark or respect or status.  So I think that's where the reasoning comes from with Molly.  If she's doing post mortems she's likely a pathologist, if she's a pathologist, then she's a doctor, and if she's a doctor titled "Miss", she's a surgeon. 

Incidentally, in the UK, I don't think coroners are generally doctors at all - it's more of a legal position than a medical one.  As for psychiatrists and other non-surgeons, their title would be "Dr".  They wouldn't need a doctorate for that title!

My personal feeling is that they the character just developed that way - she started off being somebody who worked in the lab/mortuary, they decided to keep the character and gave her a bigger role in her field.  I don't honestly think there was supposed to be any backstory about her being dual trained as a surgeon and pathologist - that's just us trying to make things fit! 

 

March 9, 2018 8:50 pm  #262


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Thanks for the info, Liberty. But now I have a question: Do I understand you correctly that in the UK people may call themselves "Dr" without having a doctor's degree? I think in Germany that would be an offence since the title "Doktor" is protected. You must have written a doctoral thesis and passed an oral exam before you are allowed to bear this title, no matter your field of study, 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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March 9, 2018 10:10 pm  #263


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yes, (medical) doctors have the title "Dr", regardless of whether they have a doctoral degree (I imagine the majority won't when they first qualify).  They are two very separate things, with a title in common, I suppose

 

March 10, 2018 7:52 am  #264


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yes in fact another point in this discussion is: my Unlce Stuart used to get told off by his wife, for signing a hotel register as Dr S Graham...simply because he had a doctorate.
Obvioulsy this causes great confusion, as often he was called on in a medical emergency...for which a physics doctorate is little use!


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March 10, 2018 11:56 am  #265


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Liberty wrote:

It is incredibly outdated!  But it is still used a lot today (in fact, I think it's probably rare that it's not used).   And they are all doctors, of course.  It's the same basic training.  It's just the titles that are different.  Surgeons are usually Mr/Miss/Mrs (although they were previously Dr).  It's a mark or respect or status.  So I think that's where the reasoning comes from with Molly.

Oh, intersting. I got it now, where my confusion comes from. And it seems that the system in the UK IS quite different from that in Germany and probably the rest of central Europe? At least in Austria and Switzerland it is the same as in Germany with the doctoral degree.

We are getting off topic, but I find it very interesting so I hope it is ok and we can discuss further.

So for a physician in the UK it would be something like an honor to lose his doctoral title if he aspires to become a surgeon? Because it would mean that, when he is now called Mr again, he now has the training and expertise to do surgeries on his own? And could you say that for physicians it is easier to get the title "Doctor" than to get rid of it again? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/nerdy.png
 This is weird, you have to admit.^^

What also is very different: In Germany, if you earn the title "Doctor" (you have to write a doctoral thesis for that like SusiGo explained), you will keep it for a lifetime, even if you don't work anymore. You can't lose it again. (exception could be if it is plagiarism/if you copied it or if you commit a severe crime.) The title will always appear in your passport, in your address, in all official documents... Does the title of a medical doctor appear in his passport in the UK as well? (e.g. Dr Smith, Tom) Or only if you actually have written a doctoral thesis like in other academic disciplines? And will the title disappear if you are not a doctor anymore but a surgeon???

And now the question of all questions http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
: A person from, e.g. Germany with a doctoral degree, is moving abroad to live and work there. Of course he will keep the title in the UK as well, doesn't he? Well, and what if this person is a fully trained surgeon with a doctoral degree? (Most surgeons have a doctoral degree here, so it is a likely scenario that must already have happened in reality.) Then he will be a surgeon with the title Dr... and not with the title Mr..., right? If he HAS to take the title Mr... because he is a surgeon, well, it would mean that he "loses" his doctoral degree, but this can't be, because you "can't" lose it. What now??? Would people in the UK be confused if "their" surgeon who is about to do the operation has the title "Dr" and not "Mr" like they would expect? Would they mistrust him to do the job right?

Last edited by Rache (March 10, 2018 11:58 am)


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March 10, 2018 12:16 pm  #266


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I doubt many would either know nor care, to be honest!


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March 10, 2018 1:49 pm  #267


Re: TLD Headscratchers

besleybean wrote:

I doubt many would either know nor care, to be honest!

Well, that's relieving!  
I wonder what would officially done, though, in the example I have given.^^
 


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March 10, 2018 4:07 pm  #268


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I don't know how "protected" the titles are, but my guess in that situation would be that it would be up to the surgeon to choose which title they wanted to use.   I don't see any reason why they couldn't use Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms at work (which makes most sense) and Dr outside of work, if they wanted to.  (I would say that if anything, it's more work getting the Mr/etc. title than the Dr (PhD) title, so they might want to use it for that reason, and for clarity).

I think most people think of doctors as medical doctors.  So there's probably more confusion when another health professional with a doctorate is using the title "Dr". 

I suppose it's getting the idea that the two "Dr" titles are very different.  One is an academic title and one is a professional title.  Yes, AFIIK the academic title would be for life.  I think medical doctors can continue to use the title after retiring too (although I don't suppose they can if they are struck off). Yes, medical doctors' title would appear in documents and so on.  I'm not sure about passports and had to look it up - apparently professional titles (Doctor, Judge, etc.) can be noted on the passport, but not academic titles.  So it looks as if only medical Drs (and not academic Drs) can have the title entered?  Which would be the opposite of Germany!

Yes, a surgeon being called "Mr" is kind of an honor, because it's hard getting through that training and those exams!  But physicians have a similar difficult route to follow, with its own exams and so on - they just don't change their title.   So Mr/Miss/etc isn't a higher title than Dr as such.

(Yes, it's getting way off topic, but because it's so quiet here and it's kind of relevant to John and Molly's background, I think it's fine!)

 

 

March 11, 2018 12:53 pm  #269


Re: TLD Headscratchers

And I suppose the confusion proves that Culverton Smith's asking John "but are you a real doctor" wasn't all that far out of line ;)

(Seriously OT, for information of the non-Germans, in case anybody is interested: In Germany, and possibly France, students in the medical professions - veterinarians included - generally (used to) write a doctoral thesis in order to be able to use the title "Doctor". But the quality of these theses is a very far cry from what post-graduate students in other fields have to produce to obtain a Ph. D. I've read a French veterinary doctoral thesis which I probably could have written myself without even properly studying the field! And there are medical "doctors" in Germany that have not written a doctoral thesis, but I can't find out how they are adressed by their patients... However, it might explain why my dentist is called Mr. by the assistants.... And there are discussions at least in Germany (haven't searched for the situation in France) to change the rules" to align them with anglosaxon countries.)

 

March 11, 2018 2:17 pm  #270


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Wow, very formal dentists...everyone just calls ours Graham, even though we all know he's a dr!


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