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March 9, 2018 4:28 pm  #261


Re: TLD Headscratchers

It is incredibly outdated!  But it is still used a lot today (in fact, I think it's probably rare that it's not used).   And they are all doctors, of course.  It's the same basic training.  It's just the titles that are different.  Surgeons are usually Mr/Miss/Mrs (although they were previously Dr).  It's a mark or respect or status.  So I think that's where the reasoning comes from with Molly.  If she's doing post mortems she's likely a pathologist, if she's a pathologist, then she's a doctor, and if she's a doctor titled "Miss", she's a surgeon. 

Incidentally, in the UK, I don't think coroners are generally doctors at all - it's more of a legal position than a medical one.  As for psychiatrists and other non-surgeons, their title would be "Dr".  They wouldn't need a doctorate for that title!

My personal feeling is that they the character just developed that way - she started off being somebody who worked in the lab/mortuary, they decided to keep the character and gave her a bigger role in her field.  I don't honestly think there was supposed to be any backstory about her being dual trained as a surgeon and pathologist - that's just us trying to make things fit! 

 

March 9, 2018 8:50 pm  #262


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Thanks for the info, Liberty. But now I have a question: Do I understand you correctly that in the UK people may call themselves "Dr" without having a doctor's degree? I think in Germany that would be an offence since the title "Doktor" is protected. You must have written a doctoral thesis and passed an oral exam before you are allowed to bear this title, no matter your field of study, 
 


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March 9, 2018 10:10 pm  #263


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yes, (medical) doctors have the title "Dr", regardless of whether they have a doctoral degree (I imagine the majority won't when they first qualify).  They are two very separate things, with a title in common, I suppose

 

March 10, 2018 7:52 am  #264


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yes in fact another point in this discussion is: my Unlce Stuart used to get told off by his wife, for signing a hotel register as Dr S Graham...simply because he had a doctorate.
Obvioulsy this causes great confusion, as often he was called on in a medical emergency...for which a physics doctorate is little use!


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March 10, 2018 11:56 am  #265


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Liberty wrote:

It is incredibly outdated!  But it is still used a lot today (in fact, I think it's probably rare that it's not used).   And they are all doctors, of course.  It's the same basic training.  It's just the titles that are different.  Surgeons are usually Mr/Miss/Mrs (although they were previously Dr).  It's a mark or respect or status.  So I think that's where the reasoning comes from with Molly.

Oh, intersting. I got it now, where my confusion comes from. And it seems that the system in the UK IS quite different from that in Germany and probably the rest of central Europe? At least in Austria and Switzerland it is the same as in Germany with the doctoral degree.

We are getting off topic, but I find it very interesting so I hope it is ok and we can discuss further.

So for a physician in the UK it would be something like an honor to lose his doctoral title if he aspires to become a surgeon? Because it would mean that, when he is now called Mr again, he now has the training and expertise to do surgeries on his own? And could you say that for physicians it is easier to get the title "Doctor" than to get rid of it again? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/nerdy.png
 This is weird, you have to admit.^^

What also is very different: In Germany, if you earn the title "Doctor" (you have to write a doctoral thesis for that like SusiGo explained), you will keep it for a lifetime, even if you don't work anymore. You can't lose it again. (exception could be if it is plagiarism/if you copied it or if you commit a severe crime.) The title will always appear in your passport, in your address, in all official documents... Does the title of a medical doctor appear in his passport in the UK as well? (e.g. Dr Smith, Tom) Or only if you actually have written a doctoral thesis like in other academic disciplines? And will the title disappear if you are not a doctor anymore but a surgeon???

And now the question of all questions http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
: A person from, e.g. Germany with a doctoral degree, is moving abroad to live and work there. Of course he will keep the title in the UK as well, doesn't he? Well, and what if this person is a fully trained surgeon with a doctoral degree? (Most surgeons have a doctoral degree here, so it is a likely scenario that must already have happened in reality.) Then he will be a surgeon with the title Dr... and not with the title Mr..., right? If he HAS to take the title Mr... because he is a surgeon, well, it would mean that he "loses" his doctoral degree, but this can't be, because you "can't" lose it. What now??? Would people in the UK be confused if "their" surgeon who is about to do the operation has the title "Dr" and not "Mr" like they would expect? Would they mistrust him to do the job right?

Last edited by Rache (March 10, 2018 11:58 am)


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March 10, 2018 12:16 pm  #266


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I doubt many would either know nor care, to be honest!


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March 10, 2018 1:49 pm  #267


Re: TLD Headscratchers

besleybean wrote:

I doubt many would either know nor care, to be honest!

Well, that's relieving!  
I wonder what would officially done, though, in the example I have given.^^
 


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March 10, 2018 4:07 pm  #268


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I don't know how "protected" the titles are, but my guess in that situation would be that it would be up to the surgeon to choose which title they wanted to use.   I don't see any reason why they couldn't use Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms at work (which makes most sense) and Dr outside of work, if they wanted to.  (I would say that if anything, it's more work getting the Mr/etc. title than the Dr (PhD) title, so they might want to use it for that reason, and for clarity).

I think most people think of doctors as medical doctors.  So there's probably more confusion when another health professional with a doctorate is using the title "Dr". 

I suppose it's getting the idea that the two "Dr" titles are very different.  One is an academic title and one is a professional title.  Yes, AFIIK the academic title would be for life.  I think medical doctors can continue to use the title after retiring too (although I don't suppose they can if they are struck off). Yes, medical doctors' title would appear in documents and so on.  I'm not sure about passports and had to look it up - apparently professional titles (Doctor, Judge, etc.) can be noted on the passport, but not academic titles.  So it looks as if only medical Drs (and not academic Drs) can have the title entered?  Which would be the opposite of Germany!

Yes, a surgeon being called "Mr" is kind of an honor, because it's hard getting through that training and those exams!  But physicians have a similar difficult route to follow, with its own exams and so on - they just don't change their title.   So Mr/Miss/etc isn't a higher title than Dr as such.

(Yes, it's getting way off topic, but because it's so quiet here and it's kind of relevant to John and Molly's background, I think it's fine!)

 

 

March 11, 2018 12:53 pm  #269


Re: TLD Headscratchers

And I suppose the confusion proves that Culverton Smith's asking John "but are you a real doctor" wasn't all that far out of line ;)

(Seriously OT, for information of the non-Germans, in case anybody is interested: In Germany, and possibly France, students in the medical professions - veterinarians included - generally (used to) write a doctoral thesis in order to be able to use the title "Doctor". But the quality of these theses is a very far cry from what post-graduate students in other fields have to produce to obtain a Ph. D. I've read a French veterinary doctoral thesis which I probably could have written myself without even properly studying the field! And there are medical "doctors" in Germany that have not written a doctoral thesis, but I can't find out how they are adressed by their patients... However, it might explain why my dentist is called Mr. by the assistants.... And there are discussions at least in Germany (haven't searched for the situation in France) to change the rules" to align them with anglosaxon countries.)

 

March 11, 2018 2:17 pm  #270


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Wow, very formal dentists...everyone just calls ours Graham, even though we all know he's a dr!


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May 26, 2018 7:05 pm  #271


Re: TLD Headscratchers

There is one small detail that always bothered me about this episode (great as it is in general): During the argument between Sherlock and John at the psychatrist's house, we have this dialouge:

Sherlock: "... but when have I ever been a malingerer?"
John: "You pretended to be dead for two years!"
Sherlock: "Well.. apart from that..."

I had to look up the word "malingerer", and it seems to be a word used for those who fake an illness to avoid work or other unwanted duties. It annoys me that Sherlock sort of "agrees" to John calling him a malingerer, because to me, that was not at all what he was doing for those two years - quite the opposite!

I understand the entire scene is played for laughs, which in a way makes it worse. It's like they are taking what Sherlock actually did, and went through, for those two years and turned into a cheap joke. 

I suspect that I am taking this a bit too seriously, even reacting to it. What do you guys think? 


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May 26, 2018 7:46 pm  #272


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yeah it does seem a tad odd, particularly when John  knew what Sherlock was doing for all of that time...
I guess it was just John's frustration boiling up, Sherock knew this and was trying to pacify the flames...


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May 26, 2018 7:48 pm  #273


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yeah, it makes me think that Sherlock would just play along to go with his long-term plan.

But even so, it is played for laughs to the audience. 


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May 26, 2018 7:50 pm  #274


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Things often are in the series, though...
The whole Reunion scene in TEH.
I hated John continually belting Sherlock, though it was possibly in character.
Everytime I see the reunion with Greg, I say:  that's how John should have reacted.
Having said that, the reunion sequence is truly hilarious.


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May 26, 2018 7:59 pm  #275


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I have a very different take on it. For me, now, the reunion scene is a display of Martin's best acting seen to date. (The restaurants scene in particular).

But, yeah, good of you mention, because it's not the first time they've done that. Played a serious scene as a joke to the audience. Which might be a reminder that we shouldn't take it too seriously.

Oh, and a comment to the well-often criticism of John in the well, being a handed a rope when he can't climb up. I don't think that was the only help he was given. I think he was first given the rope to have something to cling to so that he could get higher off the water. Then, someone would climb down and help him with the chain and help him up, they just didn't show the entire process. 


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May 26, 2018 8:01 pm  #276


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Oh god yes, sorry, I wasn't meaning the acting was bad...they are all brilliant in it, Amanda included.

I agree with you on the rope thing...different episode of course!


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May 26, 2018 8:09 pm  #277


Re: TLD Headscratchers

No, but it was an interesting comparison from you. I found the reunion scene (after the awesome acting) hilarious, but I didn't like the joke in TLD. But the gist of it is really the same.


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May 26, 2018 8:40 pm  #278


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I don't mind it too much as a joke ... it is kind of funny!  I don't think John meant it in the sense of Sherlock pretending to be ill/dead to avoid work, but as pointing out that he has been known to fake things, and John was just checking that he wasn't faking the drug-taking (he did kind of fake/exaggerate the drug problem in HLV, so it wouldn't be the first time).    It's funny that a malingerer would usually just pretend to be ill, but Sherlock goes as far as pretending to be dead ... which I suppose ties in nicely to the theme of the episode (and the original story). 

 

May 26, 2018 8:57 pm  #279


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yeah, I can see that side of it. Then again, even in TLD, he is not faking it to avoid something uncomfortable - quite the opposite, again.

I don't mind Sherlock being confronted with lying, or doing drugs. Because he is prone to both those things. I have an issue with him being called a malingerer, and agreeing to it.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
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Team Hudders!
 
 

May 27, 2018 12:24 am  #280


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Vhanja wrote:

I have a very different take on it. For me, now, the reunion scene is a display of Martin's best acting seen to date. (The restaurants scene in particular).

But, yeah, good of you mention, because it's not the first time they've done that. Played a serious scene as a joke to the audience. Which might be a reminder that we shouldn't take it too seriously.

Oh, and a comment to the well-often criticism of John in the well, being a handed a rope when he can't climb up. I don't think that was the only help he was given. I think he was first given the rope to have something to cling to so that he could get higher off the water. Then, someone would climb down and help him with the chain and help him up, they just didn't show the entire process. 

I agree; that's what must have been done.  I just wish they could have shown the entire process!
 

 

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