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January 13, 2018 7:37 am  #8061


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It's an obvious comparison to make, but what I think John means is "I am moving on with my life". As in, not being stuck in limbo due to grief without going anywhere or doing anything. 

But ,of course, I do see why it easily could be interpreted that way, I think these things concerning John's marriage (changes for Sherlock, Sherlock's role and importance in John's life) are balancing on tip-toes between friendship and romance in the way it is written and done.

Then again, a friend reacting with fear/jealousy because their best friend gets a romantic partner is not new, it happens all the time (although perhaps more with teenagers when their BFF suddenly changes focus from them to the other sex). That does fit, I think, seeing as Sherlock - at that time - was emotionally immature in some ways (and very mature in others), so I think his reaction is quite fitting.


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January 13, 2018 8:00 am  #8062


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I am sure we have discussed this before.
But I always thought it quite obvious what Mary meant:
She wasn't the first sexual partner.
Sherlock wasn't the first best friend.


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January 13, 2018 8:10 am  #8063


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think that also there's a set up for Mrs Hudson's misunderstanding.   So yes, it could be interpreted in a romantic way, which is how Mrs Hudson (mistakenly!) hears it.   But that's from her point of view of assuming they were boyfriends.   We know that they weren't "together" in that way (whatever people's interpretation of their feelings towards each other!), and I think it's clear that John wasn't implying that they were.

I think Mrs Hudson's warning is purely about friendship.  She talks about how her friendship with her best friend changed after the wedding, which plays into Sherlock's fear. The same with Sholto - it's John's friendship with him that makes him that makes Sherlock jealous. (If he was jealous in the romantic sense, then he would be jealous because of Mary, John's current lover!).

Mycroft's comment - again, he seems to be talking about friendships changing after marriage, in the same way as Mrs Hudson - the end of an era.  After TST, I do wonder if he was also alluding to the fact that Mary was likely to be killed soon, and Sherlock would be hurt again.  He uses the "Redbeard" trigger, doesn't he? 

Mary's comment about neither of them being the first doesn't make any sense if she meant only as lovers - I just can't see it as Mary thinking that Sherlock has been seeing John as a lover (and that Sholto is also a lover).   Again, I think it's the friendship theme - Sherlock wasn't John's first antisocial best friend, much to his chagrin.  (The point being, I think, that Mary isn't the first [serious?] girlfriend, but is the one John is with now - that's what matters). 

Last edited by Liberty (January 13, 2018 8:13 am)

 

January 13, 2018 9:43 am  #8064


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I love the author's view on the proposal. Thanks for posting the link, Susi. :-)


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January 14, 2018 12:45 pm  #8065


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

It's an obvious comparison to make, but what I think John means is "I am moving on with my life". As in, not being stuck in limbo due to grief without going anywhere or doing anything.

I agree. "Moving on" can mean a lot of things and not necessarily in a romantic or platonic way.

Vhanja wrote:

But ,of course, I do see why it easily could be interpreted that way, I think these things concerning John's marriage (changes for Sherlock, Sherlock's role and importance in John's life) are balancing on tip-toes between friendship and romance in the way it is written and done.

I love this balancing in the show. Although I for myself see more the friendship aspect.

Last edited by Rache (January 14, 2018 12:45 pm)


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January 14, 2018 2:18 pm  #8066


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Rache wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

But ,of course, I do see why it easily could be interpreted that way, I think these things concerning John's marriage (changes for Sherlock, Sherlock's role and importance in John's life) are balancing on tip-toes between friendship and romance in the way it is written and done.

I love this balancing in the show. Although I for myself see more the friendship aspect.

I used to love this balancing too. That's why I missed it so much in S4. :-(


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 14, 2018 2:57 pm  #8067


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I've never seen any fine balancing.
Sherlock loves John and always has done, though I don't think he realises until the Pool scene.
I used to think it was the love of a best friend.
But in S 4, we learn that he considers John a brother.


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January 14, 2018 4:44 pm  #8068


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, I don't think it ever really does stray into romance (except in the broad sense).  I don't get the feeling that they actually fancy each other. 

 

January 14, 2018 5:26 pm  #8069


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

With balancing, I don't mean that the show strays into romantic territory per say. Only that it's written and performed in such a way that it's easy to understand how someone could interpret it as romantic. Whether that was done deliberate or not is impossible to know, but, yeah, I miss that too.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

January 14, 2018 5:35 pm  #8070


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I am sorry, but I disagree with that.
I think it's perfectly possible to know and I believe we do.
The team have spoken about it on several occasions.
They did not write Sherlock and John as attracted to each other.


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January 14, 2018 5:44 pm  #8071


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It seems I am completely unable to make myself understood in this thread these days. I blame the language barrier!

I do not mean that the show is written as if it's supposed to be romantic.I mean that some scenes are written and acted in such a way that makes it possible to interpret it as romantic. It might be meant as platonic, but it's done in such a way that leaves it open to interpret it otherwise.


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January 14, 2018 5:46 pm  #8072


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

No worries.
Well the team did say they have no problem with people interpreting it however they wish, but they have always been quite clear how they wrote it.


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January 14, 2018 5:47 pm  #8073


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, but the question is whether the ambivalence (is that the right word in this settnig?) was done intentional or not.


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January 14, 2018 5:48 pm  #8074


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

No it wasn't.
Well at the very least: no ambivalence on Sherlock and John's relationship.


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January 14, 2018 5:49 pm  #8075


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

We don't know that, really. 


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


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January 14, 2018 5:50 pm  #8076


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I believe we do.
They have said so repeatedly in interviews.

Last edited by besleybean (January 14, 2018 5:51 pm)


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January 14, 2018 5:52 pm  #8077


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Nice to see that nothing has changed over here while I was away. :-D


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 14, 2018 5:53 pm  #8078


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Hahaha! 

Besley - what is it they have said repeatedly in interviews? I fear I might still not be getting my point across.


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January 14, 2018 6:27 pm  #8079


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

My guess is that it's not intentional at all.  I have wondered in the past if it was, but I think not.  I think it's just that characters do tend to get "shipped", and we see things there that were never intended (it IS difficult to interpret facial expressions, etc).  I think both actors have been clear that they haven't been playing the characters that way too. 

 

January 14, 2018 7:21 pm  #8080


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Ambiguity was the word I was looking for! 

I do agree that I don't think the actors played it that way intentionally, but we don't know if it was written with a level of ambiguity by intent. Many people have stated that the ambiguity made it more interesting. It could be a way to get more viewers. 


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