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November 27, 2017 2:15 pm  #241


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

I'd have liked to have seen more too, but I'm glad that we at least got more of Mycroft in TFP.   I do think that a lot is explained on screen though.   TAB in particular shows Sherlock desperately competing as the younger, and less bright brother, to beat Mycroft on his own terms (the "murderous jealousy"!).  Mycroft, meanwhile, is very protective of Sherlock, but it becomes clear that Sherlock is seen as the golden boy in the family (and the grown-up), whereas Mycroft is chided despite being the one who takes his parents to the theatre.   Intellectually, he's also stuck in the middle - he may be cleverer than Sherlock but he's not as clever as Eurus.   And because he sometimes takes a kind of parental role, he has to deal with Sherlock acting up like a teenager at times - and we don't really see a lot of reciprocal love and protectiveness from Sherlock (although I'm sure he must feel it).  In TFP it turns out that he was always hoping for Sherlock's approval too (Lady Bracknell - "I always wondered").  I suspect that Mycroft might even be a wee bit envious of Sherlock's ability to form rewarding relationships with goldfish. 

I think sibling rivalry is so common that we probably don't need a reason for it.  Sherlock is shown as being childishly jealous (about John's previous best friend, in TSOT), and Mycroft is not just a brother but a parental figure whom he rebels against. 

Who upset mother ... wasn't there some hint about a backstory that was cut, something to do with Daddy Holmes having an affair and Sherlock deducing it?  Or did I imagine that, or read it in fanfiction?  

 

November 27, 2017 2:27 pm  #242


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

A bit of googling brought up this old article which mentions Mark's relationship with his brother:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/23/mark-gatiss-family-values
My older brother and I only stopped hating each other recently. We never had anything in common. He was painfully shy and found his expression in lashing out at people. I was quite shy myself, but I was all right on stage, being a performer. My brother, however, wasn't forthcoming at all. He was a fierce defender of me in the playground, but at home he would hit me. We have become closer over the years.

So he's quite well acquainted with difficult sibling relationships! 

 

November 27, 2017 3:08 pm  #243


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

Very interesting, Liberty. And I agree with your analysis of the two. We see that Mycroft has always tried to protect and help his little brother, but he's also done that in a very condecending way. I think Sherlock has always rebelled against that (as you say - as a teenager would against a parent). 

Also, I think part of the resentment comes from, as you mention, being "the stupid one". Trying to follow Mycroft's advice about "caring isn't an advantage", but always failing to live up to it. Not smart enough and not "cold" enough. 

Even as grown men, they both return to childish bickering when they meet. Sherlock has some of the same with others (as you mentioned with his jealousy, amongst others) and Mycroft also acts like a child towards his mother at Christmas. So it seems they are both a bit stunted emotionally, having stopped developing at a young age on certain parts - at least in their relationship with each other and when someone triggers that part of themselves.

Also, as part of this discussion, I find these metas about the Holmes Brothers very interesting:

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/holmesfamily


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December 11, 2017 7:11 pm  #244


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

There is one thing that has been bugging me ever since I saw this episode for the first time. It's when Mummy Holmes says to Sherlock: "You were always the grown-up".

That is plainly wrong. It's an example of "show, not tell". She tells us that he has always been the grown-up of the two, but what we have been constantly shown throughout the series is the exaxt opposite.

Sherlock was the one who spent his teenage years off his tits on drugs, with his grown-up brother helping him. 

Sherlock was the one pissing off everyone around him because of his rudeness and arrogance, while Mycroft was the grown-up one who raised in ranks to a very influencial job (something you don't get if you don't have social graces and act like a grown-up).

Sherlock is the one acting like a pouty 12-year-old whenever Mycroft shows up, even though Mycroft only wants to help (granted, Mycroft does so in a very condecending way).

It's only in the later seasons we see that Sherlock starts growing, and actually out-growing, his older brother in the terms of emotional and social maturity. But that is in S3 and S4, which does not add up with Mummy Holmes saying he was "always" the grown-up.


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December 11, 2017 8:43 pm  #245


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

I've wondered about that too.  Outside of TFP, Mycroft does seem more "adult", especially as it seems to be agreed that he has tended to take a more parental role with him.  But perhaps he can be just as childish as Sherlock at times, but keep it better hidden?  There's a similar sort of one-upmanship, arrogance, petulance, etc., but maybe not as overt.  But yes, even in TFP, Mycroft calmly and maturely tries to get himself killed for Sherlock's sake ... I do think the comment seems a bit unfair!   Especially as Mycroft is the one who takes his parents to the theatre (even though he hates it!), while Sherlock is the one who childishly throws them out of the house when his friend comes round.   But maybe that's it - there's a bit of a prodigal son thing going on with Sherlock, who can do no wrong despite his failings, whereas Mycroft panders to the parents and they think less of him?

Maybe it's a little bit deeper, with their parents intuiting that Sherlock is actually the one who can deal better with emotions, whereas Mycroft just refuses to let them affect him (or tries to!)?  But again ... I don't know if that's exactly what we've been shown over time. 

Maybe it's just a little twist, for fun, but it is interesting to look at why it might have been said. 

 

December 11, 2017 9:53 pm  #246


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

I agree. But then there are so many things about the Holmes family that do not add up and have not been explained so far. Like this:

M: We have more in common than you like to believe. This petty feud between us is simply childish. People will suffer ... and you know how it always upset Mummy. (John frowns as if unsure of what he just heard.) SHERLOCK: I upset her? Me? (The man glowers at him.) SHERLOCK: It wasn’t me that upset her, Mycroft. 

This has never been explained. And if you look at TFP you do not get the slightest hint of any feud between Sherlock and Mycroft. Nothing whatsoever. So how did this start? "He has always been so resentful." A "childish feud." Not to mention Sherlock's MP in HLV with Mycroft telling him that the parents thought Sherlock so stupid. All this stuff is in no way explained by a sister who was declared dead by one brother and forgotten by the other. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

December 12, 2017 12:04 am  #247


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

Well, if it's childish is it worth explaining? I'm of the mind to think it's more interesting that it's not explained, because you can fill in the blanks for yourself. Explaining the whole story almost diminishes its value, especially if it's some childish thing that they've carried into adulthood. I think the fact that they bicker is evidence enough for what its function in the story has been.

Last edited by Yitzock (December 12, 2017 12:05 am)


http://orig11.deviantart.net/078e/f/2015/207/f/e/consulting_detective_2_by_sakuranakamura-d92vt40.pnghttp://orig08.deviantart.net/8f4e/f/2015/198/4/2/blogger_by_sakuranakamura-d91o4zv.png
Clueing for looks.
 

December 12, 2017 7:44 am  #248


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

I do think there has been evidence of a feud all along - particularly in TAB, but also in other episodes.  I'm getting lost now, but was it another thread where I linked to an article suggesting that Mark drew on his own sibling relationship?  I don't think sibling rivalry really needs explanation, but Sherlock being the favourite might help to fire it up on Mycroft's part.  And Eurus might add to it in that Sherlock is perhaps even more coddled due to his amnesia, and also Mycroft knows that he is not the most intelligent sibling! 

From memory, in the flashbacks, it seems to me as Mycroft is trying to be closer to his parents while the younger children play - obviously there's the age gap, but I wonder if he'd have liked to be the favourite.   He then goes on to idolise the Queen - I wonder if that's flagging up mummy issues?  Maybe while Eurus was wanting to get Sherlock's approval, Mycroft was mirroring that with trying to get Mummy's approval.  In which case, I do like the little bit at the end where she reaches for his hand!

 

December 12, 2017 8:24 am  #249


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

For me Sherlock's feelings as shown in the HLV mind palace have not been sufficiently explained. Or if they have - Mycroft simply having humiliated him even as a boy and telling Sherlock that his parents are disappointed in him - there has not been a solution. Every time we see Mycroft in Sherlock's mind he is much more than an annoying older brother with a control habit - Sherlock sees him as a judge towering over him, as someone who humiliates a little boy and sides with the parents against him, as someone grotesquely fat and claiming all space and using even Sherlock's best friend's wife to spy on him. These are no small issues and what is more, they have nothing to do with a lost sister. This is between the brothers and to me it has not been solved at all. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

December 12, 2017 10:37 am  #250


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

Ooo, this is starting to add up. If Sherlock was the favorite, despite being more "childish" and not as smart as Mycroft, that could have led to Mycroft picking on Sherlock. Telling him he was stupid, being condecending etc.

Then again, that doesn't really make sense when I think about it. Because Sherlock is the one being told is "resentful", Mycroft isn't. If Sherlock had been a favorite and Mycroft being ignored by his parents, that would have made for an understandable resentment from Mycroft to Sherlock, which we don't see. Quite the opposite, he seems to care quite a lot about him.

Concerning the dialogue at the end of ASiP, I always thought that hinted to young Sherlock having revelead that his father had an affair, but that Moftiss chose to not go further down that path in the series. So it was a set-up for something that they chose to leave off.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

December 12, 2017 6:13 pm  #251


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

I did read something about that last part (Sherlock deducing that his father had an affair). 

It makes sense to me that Mycroft has mixed feelings.  He does care for Sherlock a great deal.  That doesn't stop him resenting Sherlock being the favourite.  I think the mixed sibling feelings are mirrored a little with Eurus, who adores Sherlock but also resents him for preferring another companion. 

Sherlock resents Mycroft becauses he thinks he's the clever one.   (And in a way, that little bit is resolved - it turns out that Eurus was the clever one all along).   His mind palace images of Mycroft are exaggerated of course, but I think there is truth in them, or truth as Sherlock sees it.  He does feel belittled by him, and at the same time he wants his approval, without ever admitting that he kind of aspires to be like him!  And even mind palace Mycroft has a caring, protective side. 

I do think sibling rivalry/jealousy is a theme here, rather than a mystery to be solved.   It's such an old and familiar story isn't it?  Cain and Abel being a classic example!

 

December 12, 2017 6:15 pm  #252


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

Though thankfully we didn't quite get the Cain/Abel climax!


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December 12, 2017 7:14 pm  #253


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

The first ever murder, according to the Bible, although it wouldn't have taken a Sherlock to work out whodunnit!

 

December 12, 2017 8:16 pm  #254


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

lol Not exactly a lot of suspects.


http://orig11.deviantart.net/078e/f/2015/207/f/e/consulting_detective_2_by_sakuranakamura-d92vt40.pnghttp://orig08.deviantart.net/8f4e/f/2015/198/4/2/blogger_by_sakuranakamura-d91o4zv.png
Clueing for looks.
 

December 13, 2017 10:20 am  #255


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

Vhanja wrote:

...

Sherlock was the one who spent his teenage years off his tits on drugs, with his grown-up brother helping him. 

....

What makes you think so? Was that shown in TAB (the only episode I haven't seen)? For in none of the others do we see or hear anything about Sherlock's teenage years. And we don't really know a lot about his childhood either - most of what we think we know is in reality only what Mycroft tells us.

As for Mycroft's supposed grown-up behaviour: Do reasonable, law-abiding citizens coerce people into their cars with mysterious threats and then call themselves their brother's enemy? Tell government secrets to their brother and his friend (remember North Korea)? Don't take no for an answer when people don't wish to work for them (TGG)? Have their brother abducted to force him to work for them (ASiB)? And of course recent history has shown that being (in) the British Government is no guarantee for anything...

So I consider it perfectly possible that Mummy Holmes simply tells the truth (as she sees it).

 

December 13, 2017 9:33 pm  #256


Re: Still unexplained secrets?

Yes, that's from TAB.

Then I guess we view Mycroft quite differently. Although keep in mind I didn't say "perfect" or "flawless". I only stated that Mycroft is shown to be more mature than Sherlock, which, to be honest, doesn't take much if you look at S1 and S2 in particular.

But, yes, the problem is that we know very little of Mummy Holmes experience with them. (For instance, in the Christmas scene in ASiB, Sherlock is clearly acting way more mature than Mycroft).


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

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