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July 11, 2017 10:34 am  #341


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

To me a villain is somebody who knowingly has done bad things.
Eurus made it quite clear she grew up not understanding the difference between right and wrong.
She was mentally ill.

Last edited by besleybean (July 11, 2017 10:34 am)


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July 11, 2017 10:42 am  #342


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

But the structure of the Sherlock stories includes a client and a villain, I think.   And they've played about with that in the past, as they did with Mary.    If Eurus wasn't the villain, who was?   I don't think the villain in the stories has to even knowingly do bad things or be mentally well - just the person Sherlock is up against.   (I'm not going to get into real life examples because I think this is a story point more than anything!)
 

     Thread Starter
 

July 11, 2017 10:45 am  #343


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

Oh yes, every good fairytale needs a villain...I accept she was the 'villain' in the classic sense.
I just don't personally see her that way...
As you pointed out, I guess it's different in TV world than it is in real life.
Sherlock throwing the CIA guy out the window: hilarious on TV, totally unacceptable in real life!


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July 11, 2017 11:10 am  #344


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

And I decline the idea of a "damaged" child. Why? It had a save home, loving and caring parents, lively siblings. No harassement, no abuse.
This child was mentally very ill in a bad sense of the diagnosis.

Last edited by DramaQueen (July 11, 2017 11:11 am)


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Or those that be not, would they might seem none!

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July 11, 2017 12:03 pm  #345


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

How is it supposed to be a good sense?
It isn't normal for a young child to cut herself and arson is definitely a sign of a disturbed mind.
I don't think anybody grows up thinking: oh I'd like to be a psychopath...it just happens.
Yes Eurus did bad things and had to be locked up for life because of that.
What would you prefer, a public hanging or something?
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make?


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July 11, 2017 2:53 pm  #346


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

I do not want to continue the conversation if you choose such aggressively attacking mode.


__________________________________________________

Men should be what they seem, 
Or those that be not, would they might seem none!

http://i66.tinypic.com/v3jd5i.jpg


 
 

July 11, 2017 3:05 pm  #347


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

Excuse me?
I wasn't being aggressive at all, thank you very much.
I honestly am having difficulty in understanding the thrust of your argument...or point, if you you would rather.
Perhaps I could ask how you would have preferred Eurus to be presented? Or would you have preferred a brother or would you have preferred Redbeard to be a dog? Or some other story line, perhaps?


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July 12, 2017 6:35 am  #348


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

DramaQueen wrote:

No one, damaged or not, have a right to kill a child.
Being damaged is NO alibi.

Point.

P.S. Mr. Holmes acted in self-defence and his vis-à-vis was an odious blackmailer who used to harass people.

I absolutely agree with you, DramaQueen.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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July 12, 2017 6:40 am  #349


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

besleybean wrote:

What would you prefer, a public hanging or something?

Kicking her down from the nearest cliff would suffice, thank you.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

July 12, 2017 9:23 am  #350


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

nakahara wrote:

DramaQueen wrote:

No one, damaged or not, have a right to kill a child.
Being damaged is NO alibi.

Point.

P.S. Mr. Holmes acted in self-defence and his vis-à-vis was an odious blackmailer who used to harass people.

I absolutely agree with you, DramaQueen.
 

Thank you a lot, @nakahara!

Would you mind to take a look at my thoughts about "fourth brother"? 😉
 


__________________________________________________

Men should be what they seem, 
Or those that be not, would they might seem none!

http://i66.tinypic.com/v3jd5i.jpg


 
 

November 13, 2017 4:42 pm  #351


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

besleybean wrote:

The show is named Sherlock and he is percentage wise the big hero and everyone's favourite character: he shot an unarmed, innocent man in the face...so I think we all cherry pick our moral high ground!

 
I assume you are referring to Sherlock shooting Magnussen.   "Unsrmed, *innocent* man" my big toe.

 

November 13, 2017 5:36 pm  #352


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

I stand by my comment: that's exactly what CAM was.
A gratuitous execution.


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November 13, 2017 6:43 pm  #353


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

I'm not so sure on the "innocent".  But I do agree - this is one of those cases where I'm prepared to see the TV universe differently, and I think it's quite forgivable there - not so much in real life!   It's complicated, though.  CAM was a despicable person, but it would have been extremely difficult to get him to court, and probably the worst he could be tried for was blackmail - and that might have been complicated by the fact that he didn't actually have letters, etc.  He got people killed, but indirectly, so there was no murder involved.   Even his threats against Mary might have been baseless.  We don't know exactly what he knew - he just needed John and Sherlock to believe it.  From Sherlock's point of view, protecting those close to him and the world in general, the only way to stop him was to kill him at that moment.  From my point of view, obviously it's not a good thing to execute people without a trial (or even with a trial - I'm not a fan of the death penalty), unless they are posing immediate threat, which an unarmed man wasn't. 
 

     Thread Starter
 

November 14, 2017 2:03 pm  #354


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

The problem as I see it, is that Sherlock's actions are being understood as part of a TV reality and therefore treated as such, whereas characters like John and Mary are treated as if their actions were done in real life. It's double-standard.


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November 14, 2017 5:39 pm  #355


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

I don't know - I think it's all pretty much shown as part of "TV reality" for all of them.  I suppose it's just up to us to not take it as a lesson for life! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

     Thread Starter
 

November 14, 2017 6:54 pm  #356


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

You're right Liberty, but I know exactly what Vhanja means...
For some it seems to continue with Eurus, too.
For a very sick lady, she gets a raw deal from some fans.


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November 15, 2017 10:16 am  #357


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

Liberty wrote:

I don't know - I think it's all pretty much shown as part of "TV reality" for all of them.  I suppose it's just up to us to not take it as a lesson for life! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

Oh, I fully agree that it is all shown to be "TV reality", I'm talking more about how it is interpreted by some fans.

But, yes, there are more constructive ways to deal with your issues than to live on a diet of drugs or beat up your best friend.

 

Last edited by Vhanja (November 15, 2017 10:17 am)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
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Team Hudders!
 
 

November 16, 2017 2:51 pm  #358


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

Liberty wrote:

I'm not so sure on the "innocent".  But I do agree - this is one of those cases where I'm prepared to see the TV universe differently, and I think it's quite forgivable there - not so much in real life!   It's complicated, though.  CAM was a despicable person, but it would have been extremely difficult to get him to court, and probably the worst he could be tried for was blackmail - and that might have been complicated by the fact that he didn't actually have letters, etc.  He got people killed, but indirectly, so there was no murder involved.   Even his threats against Mary might have been baseless.  We don't know exactly what he knew - he just needed John and Sherlock to believe it.  From Sherlock's point of view, protecting those close to him and the world in general, the only way to stop him was to kill him at that moment.  From my point of view, obviously it's not a good thing to execute people without a trial (or even with a trial - I'm not a fan of the death penalty), unless they are posing immediate threat, which an unarmed man wasn't. 
 

Sherlock is just a re-imagination of a Victorian classic and some parts of it knowingly mirror Victorian attitudes to some problems, I think.

And Victorian + Edwardian attitude towards blackmailers was hardly favourable.

Let me cite you an excerpt from another, this time Edwardian mystery in which a man Pembury/Dobbs killed a blackmailer Ellis:

"And, between ourselves," said Thorndyke, when we were discussing the case some time after, "he deserved to escape. It was clearly a case of blackmail, and to kill a blackmailer—when you have no other defence against him—is hardly murder. As to Ellis, he could never have been convicted, and Dobbs, or Pembury, must have known it. But he would have been committed to the Assizes, and that would have given time for all traces to disappear. No, Dobbs was a man of courage, ingenuity and resource; and, above all, he knocked the bottom out of the great bloodhound superstition."

(R. Austin Freeman, "A Case of Premeditation")

HLV and the beginning of TST seeems like a distant echo to these opinions on blackmail....

 

Last edited by nakahara (November 16, 2017 3:21 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

November 16, 2017 5:14 pm  #359


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

Thanks for that, Nakahara!  That's an interesting insight.  And that would explain Holmes' attitude towards Milverton and another reason why Moftiss that he had killed him (and Watson was covering for him).   I also wondered if Sherlock's Victorian/Edwardian attitude has been mixed with a more modern attitude towards the press, hence the change of Magnussen's occupation?

     Thread Starter
 

November 20, 2017 12:03 pm  #360


Re: The Final Problem: First impressions

Liberty wrote:

   I also wondered if Sherlock's Victorian/Edwardian attitude has been mixed with a more modern attitude towards the press, hence the change of Magnussen's occupation?

I think the change in M´s occupation was realised for solely practical reasons. In the original, Milverton gained most of his blackmail material from unfaithful servants and staff of higher-class households. But domestic servants aren´t the feature of modern households most of the time, hence the need for a change - and so Magnussen obtains his blackmail material from journalists and such in this new adaptation... nothing to do with the attitutes towards the press, I think.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

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