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October 11, 2017 12:04 pm  #41


Re: Eurus Holmes

I think that Mary telling Sherlock to pick a fight with a dangerous villain and Faith getting Sherlock interested in CS doesn't mean anything by itself - I strongly suspect most villains are dangerous and there should be lots of them in London, so Sherlock shouldn't have any trouble finding one (if he went out looking, instead of transforming his kitchen into a drug lab...)

However, SusiGo may still be right: Euros says "a common friend" brought her and CS together, and then the camera cuts to the hidden "Miss Me" in the note. Which I assumed to mean the common friend was Moriarty - but since Mary has taken to labelling her DVDs "Miss Me" as well - who knows?

(However, I am firmly convinced that Mary taking the bullet meant for Sherlock once and for all puts paid to the "evil Mary" theory! Not to mention that if we accept Euros having the capacity to influence people that Mycroft ascribes to her, everybody who has had contact with her is exonarated from their actions... )

 

October 17, 2017 10:05 am  #42


Re: Eurus Holmes

Another good reason - almost a requirement - for a Mary/Eurus connection:  How did Eurus know the perfect moment for broadcasting the Moriarty message? It could have been Mycroft, but he seems genuinely surprised by the message even while being all alone in his car (or was he acting surprise for the driver?) Could she have figured it out all on her own - maybe, but with what as a starting point? Even a genius needs something to latch on, I'd think.

Whereas I'd consider it possible for Mary to have been a guard in Sherrinford at some point, thus allowing a connection to Eurus. And when Mary learned of Sherlock's leaving, she might have at least told Eurus (who then figured out that he wasn't expected to return and decided to do something about it), or she might have directly asked for Eurus's help. 

And of course a nurse would be in a good position to learn about suspicious deaths in a hospital...
 

     Thread Starter
 

October 22, 2017 10:32 pm  #43


Re: Eurus Holmes

SusiGo wrote:

Rache wrote:

This is maybe the opportunity for another related theme. I just wonder if there is place in here for it or better in another thread.
It is, that for some months now, I more and more fail to understand Eurus' intentions.

I agree. I have tried to come up with an explanation of her intentions but I still fail to see it. What we are told to believe is basically this: 

Moriarty started his Sherlock campaign before the beginning of ASiP and independently of anything Eurus may have planned. About the time of ASiB Christmas Eurus got interested in Moriarty and told Mycroft to bring him to her as a Christmas present. From then on we get all these actions by Moriarty and Eurus: provoking Sherlock up to the fall, the Miss Me video, luring John away from Mary, the whole Culverton Smith case, the murder of the real therapist, the bomb attack on 221b, the killing of the governor and his wife, the killing of the three Garridebs, provoking Sherlock to murder either his brother or his best friend … right?

But for what? For a hug? I really do not get it. 

I would like to come back to this now.

And I want to focus on everything Eurus did and her intentions in Sherrinford in TFP. Thinking about the greater backgroundstory with Moriarty etc. it gets only more confusing, so I'll leave that out for the moment...

Ok, I think we can agree that Eurus is a lost soul since childhood. She always wanted to play with Sherlock and wanted to be saved by him, right? We see her playing with that toy plane in a flashback and during TFP she is basically still playing with/in the plane. The song she sung was in fact a hint for Sherlock as a child, that she needed his help and his love. Sherlock thought the song would lead him to his friend Victor though. The adult Eurus is asking Sherlock: "So why couldn't you work it [the song] out?" "Emotional context, Sherlock!". I'm not sure what she does mean by that? Was Sherlock too emotional as a child, that he thought it was about Victor, so that you couldn't see what the song was truly about=save Eurus? Or was he lacking emotional context, because he didn't get the clue about "love" and "nemo=noone" in the song?
What was she doing to the three of them in Sherrinford? She "experimented" with them to see how they would react in very emotional/moral/life and death situations, right? And she is basically trying to show them that emotions are absurd? That emotions cloud any objective view? That emotions don't get you anywhere? That the best thing to solve her puzzles would be pure brainwork? In the Molly experiment Eurus even told him "Oh look what you did to her. Look, what you did to yourself! All those complicated little emotions, I lost count."
So where is she trying to get him? I'm so confused. She is basically shown as a person who doesn't understand emotions since childhood, her intellect is hindering her. And isn't she trying to get Sherlock to that same point in Sherrinford? But in order to solve her riddle now, Sherlock must be the emotional being so he can understand that she needs him? But how can Eurus know and decide that she must get Sherlock to be emotional, when she herself doesn't really understand emotions? And she is doing quite the opposite with her experiments, doesn't she?

Do you have some ideas or answers?

Last edited by Rache (October 22, 2017 10:39 pm)


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October 23, 2017 4:23 pm  #44


Re: Eurus Holmes

I think we are simply presented with a sick Eurus who thinks she can manipulate her brothers.
She is frightened and vulnerable, Sherlock reaches out to her and heals her.


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October 26, 2017 10:07 pm  #45


Re: Eurus Holmes

But surely not just randomly!? There must be some kind of thoughts behind it.

And have we ever talked about why indeed Sheelock couldn't solve the puzzle as a child? Had it to do with emotions? Was he just not clever enough at that age?


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October 27, 2017 7:00 am  #46


Re: Eurus Holmes

I don't know, but I think one reason is that adult Eurus actually pushed him more towards it, with the "no one" clue. 

 

October 27, 2017 11:42 am  #47


Re: Eurus Holmes

Actually, thinking of this some more, the "no one" clue is very clever.   It obviously leads to the "Nemo" gravestone, and the cipher.   But it also makes the link between Eurus and the girl on the plane (who also has no one).  And Sherlock works out both parts of it.  The first part is more cerebral and the second more emotional, I suppose, so this is an example of him maturing and using the two parts together ... maybe? 

Anyway, I think that by TFP Eurus has waited years to try to get that message across to Sherlock and have him solve it.   I suppose she realised that there was a missing clue - really, we don't even know if Sherlock would have solved it as an adult if she hadn't given him that extra one.  So no wonder he couldn't do it as a child. 

 

November 18, 2017 12:24 pm  #48


Re: Eurus Holmes

Kittyhawk
But let's assume for a minute that Mycroft is telling the truth and Euros did kill Victor and burn Musgrave Hall. "The age of criminal responsibility in England and Wales is 10 years old. This means that children under 10 can’t be arrested or charged with a crime. There are other punishments that can be given to [url=https://www.gov.uk/child-under-10-breaks-law wrote:

children under 10 who break the law[/url]." (https://www.gov.uk/age-of-criminal-responsibility). If you follow the link you'll see that locking the child up in a secure facility is not one of the options. Encarcerating Euros was completely illegal - not to mention outrageously cruel!

There is a difference between criminal responsibility and going down the court route and going down the Mental Health Act route. There is no age limit on the use of Mental Health Act and there are children younger than 10 held in secure psychiatric facilities for protection of themselves and/or others with the full blessing of the law. You could easily make the case for mental disorder in case of Euros in my opinion.

It may seem extraordinary for a child to go and murder someone because of not being involved in a game but there are people out there who operate this way. A recent example in public domain is a teenager who murdered her mother and sister by stabbing them multiple times. She moved on to have Netflix and chill with her boyfriend downstairs for two days whilst bodies were still up in the bedroom. No dissociation or shock, no abuse or trauma either. Mum did not let her have a boyfriend around so she got rid of Mum.

Another child I'm working with (paraphrasing the story slightly) pushed younger brother out of the window as he was fed up with him messing with his toys. Not the tiniest bit of remorse and he knew full well the child will die. In fact, was researching on the internet how high the fall needs to be to definitely kill.

 

November 18, 2017 1:04 pm  #49


Re: Eurus Holmes

This is all very true.

My problem with this reading of the story is that adult Eurus is never actually made responsible for what she did. And I am talking about Moriarty and his campaign, blowing up 221b, torturing Sherlock, torturing poor Molly, killing the governor, his wife, the three Garridebs, and the therapist from TLD (those are the deaths that we know of). Sorry but the end does not work for me. Too easy, a hug, family visits, Sherlock playing the violin with her. For me, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. 

Last edited by SusiGo (November 18, 2017 1:05 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

November 18, 2017 1:23 pm  #50


Re: Eurus Holmes

SusiGo wrote:

This is all very true.

My problem with this reading of the story is that adult Eurus is never actually made responsible for what she did. And I am talking about Moriarty and his campaign, blowing up 221b, torturing Sherlock, torturing poor Molly, killing the governor, his wife, the three Garridebs, and the therapist from TLD (those are the deaths that we know of). Sorry but the end does not work for me. Too easy, a hug, family visits, Sherlock playing the violin with her. For me, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. 

The way I see it has been decided that she was not compos mentis to stand trial. This would not be far fetched in case of someone held in constant seclusion in a highly secure facility. Clinically I believe that she knew exactly what she was doing. However, in my headcanon, Mycroft pulled his strings to make sure that it is all put down to her mental disorder and she continues to receive 'care and treatment' under section 37/41 of MHA with not much prospect for release. Those sections come through high court and are an alternative to sentencing for seriously mentally disturbed offenders. In many ways, section 37/41 judgement it is a greater punishment than many as there is no fix tariff, no parole and essentially in equals to life in secure hospital.

The regimen that she is under, with constant seclusion and at best segregation, is more punitive than most prisons. I can guarantee that no ordinary prison would cope with someone like her. That is why they go to Brodmore, into dengerous personality disorders unit instead of category A prisons to play havock there.
 

 

November 18, 2017 6:22 pm  #51


Re: Eurus Holmes

Thank you for explaining. So would you argue that spending the rest of her life in Sherrinford is sufficient punishment (within the show, not in reality)?
Because my problem is this: I might see Sherlock forgiving her after some period of adjustment but doing it just like that, minutes after he has learned that she killed his childhood friend, does not seem very believable to me. What if he had shot his brother or John? What if John had shot the governor? What about the possible consequences for Molly's wellbeing? 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

November 18, 2017 7:16 pm  #52


Re: Eurus Holmes

SusiGo wrote:

Thank you for explaining. So would you argue that spending the rest of her life in Sherrinford is sufficient punishment (within the show, not in reality)?
Because my problem is this: I might see Sherlock forgiving her after some period of adjustment but doing it just like that, minutes after he has learned that she killed his childhood friend, does not seem very believable to me. What if he had shot his brother or John? What if John had shot the governor? What about the possible consequences for Molly's wellbeing? 

I am generally in favour of trying to rehabilitate people as opposed to punishing them. I was actually happy to see the scenes with Sherlock visiting and her starting to have a relationship with the parents again. In my headcanon, it took him a little while to come to terms with what happened but he did. It is a healthy response to be able to forgive and move on as opposed to holding to the feelings of anger and resentment. 
 

 

November 18, 2017 8:02 pm  #53


Re: Eurus Holmes

I think Sherlock can be very forgiving.  Look at how he is when Mary shoots him - he seems to go straight from being scared of her, to trying to reconcile her with John and protect her - there's no stage where it seems he resents her putting him through that. 

 

November 19, 2017 3:33 am  #54


Re: Eurus Holmes

Yes, I've noticed that.  And whatever struggle he had to forgive Eurus seems to have been resolved by the time he starts visiting her to play his violin.  Of course, if she had succeeded in murdering John as well, or even Mycroft, it might well have been a very different story.  Thankfully, Sherlock was never put to that test.

 

Last edited by kgreen20 (November 19, 2017 3:34 am)

 

November 19, 2017 8:24 am  #55


Re: Eurus Holmes

Yes. It maybe also helps that he only finds out the truth many years later, after having "forgotten" Victor in the years in between. 

Also, both Eurus and Sherlock see Eurus as the lost little girl on the plane, and that is what he responds to. 

 

November 19, 2017 8:49 am  #56


Re: Eurus Holmes

Oh the feels...
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png


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November 19, 2017 12:24 pm  #57


Re: Eurus Holmes

Liberty wrote:

I think Sherlock can be very forgiving.  Look at how he is when Mary shoots him - he seems to go straight from being scared of her, to trying to reconcile her with John and protect her - there's no stage where it seems he resents her putting him through that. 

I think with high intelligence often comes the ability to see the situation from multiple angles and way up pros and cons of multiple decisions at the same time. A bit like playing chess and evaluating the outcomes of many possible moves and their consequences beyond the immediately obvious. He can see the logic in Mary's of Eros actions and is able to see it from their perspective, stepping out of his own pain and hurt that those decisions created. It goes beyond the social norm and law and into abstract moral reasoning where things are usually grey as opposed to black or white and murder isn't always the wrong choice.

This thinking process can be done very quickly and may seem like immediately forgiving someone but in my
headcanon there was a lot of careful internal deliberation on the part of Sherlock as opposed to just letting go.

 

 

November 19, 2017 2:12 pm  #58


Re: Eurus Holmes

I agree, but I also think he loves them...


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November 20, 2017 4:08 pm  #59


Re: Eurus Holmes

belis wrote:

There is a difference between criminal responsibility and going down the court route and going down the Mental Health Act route. There is no age limit on the use of Mental Health Act and there are children younger than 10 held in secure psychiatric facilities for protection of themselves and/or others with the full blessing of the law. You could easily make the case for mental disorder in case of Euros in my opinion.

What's the procedure for having a person/child committed? There must be some safeguards to prevent people from getting rid of somebody... What bothers me is that Eurus is just "disappeared" after she burns down her first facility (IF Mycroft tells the truth here) - her parents think she's dead - Uncle Rudy and later Mycroft take over responsibility (neither would be next of kin, would they?). Sounds at the very minimum like abuse of the system to me... And Sherrinford is not a hospital, the Governor claims. So for me Eurus is unlawfully locked up, doesn't matter whether the Mental Health Act or criminal law is supposed to apply.

SusiGo wrote:

"So would you argue that spending the rest of her life in Sherrinford is sufficient punishment (within the show, not in reality)?"

Now I'm curious - what would you like to do "in reality"? Bring back the death penalty? Torture? Fact is, the death penalty has been abolished in the UK and even mass murderers can only be locked up. And I consider the conditions in Sherrinford perfectly appalling - regardless of whether it's supposed to be a mental facility or a high security prison.
 

     Thread Starter
 

November 20, 2017 6:58 pm  #60


Re: Eurus Holmes

Apart for the fact that was a very damaged little girl, who was abandoned by the state.


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