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August 16, 2017 7:22 am  #8101


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

Moftiss have openly said that Sherlock leaving the wedding is a reference to the end of The Green Death Doctor Who series.  (Where the Doctor's companion gets engaged, and he leaves the party alone). 

I think it also fits well with the theme of friendship in that episode in particular, and the theme of Sherlock choosing to be alone. 

I think it fits the topic of unrequited love. :-)

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 16, 2017 10:10 am)


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August 16, 2017 11:19 am  #8102


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree that alcohol in general loosens up inhibitions and there are a lot of people who get more "touchy-feely" when drunk - me included. So I have no trouble seeing that.

However, considering that this is a written show, I see no point of that scene in a non-Johnlock context.


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August 16, 2017 6:29 pm  #8103


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Just an average stag night, I would have thought.
Stephen Thompson wrote the scene.


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August 16, 2017 6:46 pm  #8104


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

For me the tarmac scene is the one which makes least sense without Johnlock. The stag night and the end of TSoT are close followers but the tarmac is so heartbreaking and intense that for me it cannot be explained by friendship alone, be it as deep as it may. 
And if you look closely you can see that Sherlock/Benedict is starting to say something else than "Sherlock is actually a girl's name" and then changes his mind. The man knows how to act after all. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 16, 2017 6:48 pm  #8105


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well yes, that is one of the big unanswered questions...what was Sherlock really going to say?
Personally I think it was just 'Thank you.'


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August 16, 2017 6:57 pm  #8106


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

For me the tarmac scene is the one which makes least sense without Johnlock. The stag night and the end of TSoT are close followers but the tarmac is so heartbreaking and intense that for me it cannot be explained by friendship alone, be it as deep as it may. 
And if you look closely you can see that Sherlock/Benedict is starting to say something else than "Sherlock is actually a girl's name" and then changes his mind. The man knows how to act after all. 
 

He does indeed.


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August 16, 2017 6:58 pm  #8107


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

If you compare his mouths movements with other scenes you can see quite clearly that it looks as if he was starting a sentence with "I". And I am absolutely sure that it was not "I thank you". Why? 
Because he wanted to say something and changed his mind because it would have been too painful for him or John or both. He chose to make John laugh instead. I cannot see John laughing about a "thank you". And why should he thank him at that point? If anyone had to say thank you, it would have been John, not Sherlock. He was the one who got the wife and the life because Sherlock sacrificed himself. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 16, 2017 7:01 pm  #8108


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I like the idea of "thank you" (for saving him, for everything, etc.). 

I think they are more than ordinary friends, and they do love each other.  And I think it's particularly poignant because Sherlock (and we) know that he may be going off to his death, but John doesn't (and Sherlock is being sure not to let him know).   And it's a direct result of Sherlock trying to protect John and Mary. 

The drunk scene - I think the "point" is really just that it's cute and funny, and out of character for them.  It's nice to see two quite buttoned up people being so relaxed and "unbuttoned".   But then, I can't see the point of it in Johnlock context!  There are so many other things they could have done that would be more Johnlocky.

Last edited by Liberty (August 16, 2017 7:02 pm)

 

January 12, 2018 10:55 pm  #8109


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

http://shylockgnomes.tumblr.com/post/169631702701/shinka-the-thing-is-that-if-you-want-to-watch

Nice observations. And I would add of course Mary's "Neither of us was the first, you know". And possibly also Mrs Hudson's and Mycroft's warnings about the changes that are going to happen after the wedding. They keep equating and comparing John's relationship with Sherlock to his relationship with Mary which does not make sense if one is platonic and the other is romantic.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

January 13, 2018 7:37 am  #8110


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It's an obvious comparison to make, but what I think John means is "I am moving on with my life". As in, not being stuck in limbo due to grief without going anywhere or doing anything. 

But ,of course, I do see why it easily could be interpreted that way, I think these things concerning John's marriage (changes for Sherlock, Sherlock's role and importance in John's life) are balancing on tip-toes between friendship and romance in the way it is written and done.

Then again, a friend reacting with fear/jealousy because their best friend gets a romantic partner is not new, it happens all the time (although perhaps more with teenagers when their BFF suddenly changes focus from them to the other sex). That does fit, I think, seeing as Sherlock - at that time - was emotionally immature in some ways (and very mature in others), so I think his reaction is quite fitting.


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January 13, 2018 8:00 am  #8111


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I am sure we have discussed this before.
But I always thought it quite obvious what Mary meant:
She wasn't the first sexual partner.
Sherlock wasn't the first best friend.


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January 13, 2018 8:10 am  #8112


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think that also there's a set up for Mrs Hudson's misunderstanding.   So yes, it could be interpreted in a romantic way, which is how Mrs Hudson (mistakenly!) hears it.   But that's from her point of view of assuming they were boyfriends.   We know that they weren't "together" in that way (whatever people's interpretation of their feelings towards each other!), and I think it's clear that John wasn't implying that they were.

I think Mrs Hudson's warning is purely about friendship.  She talks about how her friendship with her best friend changed after the wedding, which plays into Sherlock's fear. The same with Sholto - it's John's friendship with him that makes him that makes Sherlock jealous. (If he was jealous in the romantic sense, then he would be jealous because of Mary, John's current lover!).

Mycroft's comment - again, he seems to be talking about friendships changing after marriage, in the same way as Mrs Hudson - the end of an era.  After TST, I do wonder if he was also alluding to the fact that Mary was likely to be killed soon, and Sherlock would be hurt again.  He uses the "Redbeard" trigger, doesn't he? 

Mary's comment about neither of them being the first doesn't make any sense if she meant only as lovers - I just can't see it as Mary thinking that Sherlock has been seeing John as a lover (and that Sholto is also a lover).   Again, I think it's the friendship theme - Sherlock wasn't John's first antisocial best friend, much to his chagrin.  (The point being, I think, that Mary isn't the first [serious?] girlfriend, but is the one John is with now - that's what matters). 

Last edited by Liberty (January 13, 2018 8:13 am)

 

January 13, 2018 9:43 am  #8113


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I love the author's view on the proposal. Thanks for posting the link, Susi. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 14, 2018 12:45 pm  #8114


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

It's an obvious comparison to make, but what I think John means is "I am moving on with my life". As in, not being stuck in limbo due to grief without going anywhere or doing anything.

I agree. "Moving on" can mean a lot of things and not necessarily in a romantic or platonic way.

Vhanja wrote:

But ,of course, I do see why it easily could be interpreted that way, I think these things concerning John's marriage (changes for Sherlock, Sherlock's role and importance in John's life) are balancing on tip-toes between friendship and romance in the way it is written and done.

I love this balancing in the show. Although I for myself see more the friendship aspect.

Last edited by Rache (January 14, 2018 12:45 pm)


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January 14, 2018 2:18 pm  #8115


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Rache wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

But ,of course, I do see why it easily could be interpreted that way, I think these things concerning John's marriage (changes for Sherlock, Sherlock's role and importance in John's life) are balancing on tip-toes between friendship and romance in the way it is written and done.

I love this balancing in the show. Although I for myself see more the friendship aspect.

I used to love this balancing too. That's why I missed it so much in S4. :-(


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 14, 2018 2:57 pm  #8116


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I've never seen any fine balancing.
Sherlock loves John and always has done, though I don't think he realises until the Pool scene.
I used to think it was the love of a best friend.
But in S 4, we learn that he considers John a brother.


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January 14, 2018 4:44 pm  #8117


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, I don't think it ever really does stray into romance (except in the broad sense).  I don't get the feeling that they actually fancy each other. 

 

January 14, 2018 5:26 pm  #8118


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

With balancing, I don't mean that the show strays into romantic territory per say. Only that it's written and performed in such a way that it's easy to understand how someone could interpret it as romantic. Whether that was done deliberate or not is impossible to know, but, yeah, I miss that too.


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Team Hudders!
 
 

January 14, 2018 5:35 pm  #8119


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I am sorry, but I disagree with that.
I think it's perfectly possible to know and I believe we do.
The team have spoken about it on several occasions.
They did not write Sherlock and John as attracted to each other.


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January 14, 2018 5:44 pm  #8120


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It seems I am completely unable to make myself understood in this thread these days. I blame the language barrier!

I do not mean that the show is written as if it's supposed to be romantic.I mean that some scenes are written and acted in such a way that makes it possible to interpret it as romantic. It might be meant as platonic, but it's done in such a way that leaves it open to interpret it otherwise.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

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