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July 7, 2017 8:14 am  #21


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I am just watching the fifth series of "Dexter" so beware of spoilers if you like the show. 

What struck me - compared to Sherlock - is this: 

Dexter works as a blood splatter specialist for Miami police. He has become a single father after after his wife has been murdered (!) And you know what? They actually managed to integrate the child into the story. There are problems with the babysitter, Dexter being anxious about the mental health of his son who was found at the murder scene (but probably too young to realise what happened), he somehow has to cover work and private life ... They did exactly what Mofftiss did not - show what life for a single father looks like. Having a baby that is more than a plot device but part of the story. Of course you cannot compare the shows as such but I find it interesting how differently they are dealing with a baby as a character. Btw, they even use the same baby every time (or twins), as a viewer you can relate to the child, you get to know him, see him getting older. And they use a real baby, too, not carrying a doll around. 

I think this shows that Mofftiss were never really interested in Rosie. They just used her as a plot device (that was not in Canon) and then did not know what to do with her.


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

July 7, 2017 8:16 am  #22


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I think you could be right.
If they ever do continue with the show, they'll either have to deal with Rosie head on, or she could just be sidelined:  sent off to boarding school, maybe.


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July 7, 2017 8:29 am  #23


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

And I am still wondering why they introduced a character that was not in Canon, i.e. for which there was no need, and then did not make use of her. Molly is not Canon but she is important. She does not have many scenes but when she appears, she leaves an impression. To me the only reason for Rosie Watson's existence is that she keeps John from leaving Mary. Which is not the best reason to introduce a child into a story. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

July 7, 2017 10:07 am  #24


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I don't think that Rosie is the only reason John stays with Mary, not that it matters now.
Anyhow, I just see her as a result of John and Mary's relationship and a nod to Canon where I thought the Watsons may have had children.
But I really don't know and it's not that important to me.

Last edited by besleybean (July 7, 2017 1:17 pm)


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July 7, 2017 12:04 pm  #25


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I agree that she's a plot device rather than a character.  My guess is that they wanted Sherlock's deduction and the "three" to be about pregnancy.  I think the other reason for including her is that it adds drama: I think the same reason they make the characters clients instead of it being a new unknown person every time.   There's no reason that they have to stick to canon: I'm not sure why people keep saying that they can't/shouldn't do xyz because of canon!  This isn't the Jeremy Brett series.   But anyway, they may continue to use Rosie for dramatic purposes in the future, perhaps even having her as the client (they've done very well with their use of child actors, so it's a possibility).   And Sherlock still has his vow to protect her.  

I think what they've shown in S4 is that a child doesn't need to get in the way, as far as they're concerned. 

 

July 7, 2017 1:19 pm  #26


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

Or as far as any of us are concerned, I hope!

Last edited by besleybean (July 7, 2017 1:19 pm)


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July 7, 2017 2:12 pm  #27


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

Liberty wrote:

I agree that she's a plot device rather than a character.  My guess is that they wanted Sherlock's deduction and the "three" to be about pregnancy.  I think the other reason for including her is that it adds drama: I think the same reason they make the characters clients instead of it being a new unknown person every time.   There's no reason that they have to stick to canon: I'm not sure why people keep saying that they can't/shouldn't do xyz because of canon!  This isn't the Jeremy Brett series.   But anyway, they may continue to use Rosie for dramatic purposes in the future, perhaps even having her as the client (they've done very well with their use of child actors, so it's a possibility).   And Sherlock still has his vow to protect her.  

I think what they've shown in S4 is that a child doesn't need to get in the way, as far as they're concerned. 

It is a question of getting in the way or not to me. It is a question of creating a character and then completely neglecting her.
Take TLD: John mentions he has to get Rosie after work. He then stays away all day with Sherlock. Mrs Hudson and Molly are busy as well. He never collects his child. So where is she? It may satisfy other viewers but to me this is sloppy storytelling which I find frankly disappointing. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

July 7, 2017 2:38 pm  #28


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

He was grieving and admitted to the counselor(Eurus) he wasn't coping....
But obviously by the end of TFP it had all been sorted:
Greg turns up to 221 B for help on a case, John and Molly are called.
John brings Rosie to leave with Molly and goes off with Sherlock and Greg.
Hope this is helpful to anyone who feels John's childcare arrangements are an essential part of telling the story of Sherlock Holmes.
It would be lovely to spend time exploring John's relationship with Rosie, but there certainly wasn't the luxury of time in any of the S 4 episodes.
John has a daughter he loves her.
I see it in the same category as: he had a wife he loved her...nothing more really needs saying.
Mary only gained more prominence by becoming a client...hopefully that won't happen to Rosie.


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July 7, 2017 3:20 pm  #29


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I don't think they've ever bothered too much about realism.   And I think it's just something that we/they don't really want to have to think about.   I can't imagine it would be easy for John going on cases with Sherlock when he's working as a GP: does Sherlock only work outside of John's GP hours?    We don't know how it's managed, but it doesn't really matter as it's not relevant to the story. 

 

July 8, 2017 12:47 am  #30


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

besleybean wrote:

I think you could be right.
If they ever do continue with the show, they'll either have to deal with Rosie head on, or she could just be sidelined:  sent off to boarding school, maybe.

Or killed, as her mother was.

 

 

July 8, 2017 5:44 am  #31


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

It's possible, although I think the story of John grieving and rejecting Sherlock through grief has been done.   I think her death would have to serve a purpose for the story, other than just removing her from the show.   Which makes me think they'd be more likely to just sideline her (nanny, boarding school, etc.) as they did in S4.   I could imagine her being in peril, though.  And I also feel that now they've got her, they might as well use her and make her part of the story.

 

July 9, 2017 1:01 am  #32


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

A nanny or babysitter would definitely have to look after her, that's for sure.  But would John be able to afford a nanny?  He's not exactly a rich man, although he is better off financially than he was in the beginning.  And if they're going to keep her on the show, she's going to have to become more than just a plot device.  Since she's his daughter, not his sister, she can't be like Harry Watson--occasionally mentioned, but never shown.
 

Last edited by kgreen20 (July 9, 2017 1:07 am)

 

July 9, 2017 8:04 am  #33


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I disagree.
Not that I watch them! But I seem to remember when I did, any kids in soaps are often quite glossed over.
It wouldn't be like Harry who we never see.
We have seen Rosie quite a bit already and we may occasionally see her again, or she could just be referred to.
It wouldn't have to be a nanny, a doctor(if he still doctors) can afford a child minder.


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July 9, 2017 10:09 am  #34


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I don't know what it's like in London, but here it would normally be a lot cheaper for a childminder than a nanny for just one child.   The reason I thought of a nanny is that I've known doctors to hire them because of the flexibility over hours, and that would be useful if John needed to run off on a case with Sherlock!  But a flexible chlidminder might fit the bill too.   Anyway, given S4, I don't think the problems of childcare are going to be mentioned.   John didn't seem to have any problem finding carers.  

 

August 15, 2017 4:34 pm  #35


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

Ah, this thread. It's a comfort to find my thoughts echoed here (and articulated so well)! Either there was some level of advance planning behind the inclusion of baby Watson in the dramatis personae, or the writers wearied of scrabbling around for a suitable episode title and impulsively decided to call it the Sign of Three and throw in a surprise pregnancy at the last minute. Problem is, neither alternative is without precedent. Advance planning would mean the continued insinuation of the gay subtext as has been mentioned previously. And if I remember correctly, the now legendary dialogue in the pool scene was a last-minute addition to TGG; I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out TSOT was called something else until Moffat thought of this cleverer twist, and given their production schedule they just rolled it out and swept potential problems under the carpet until next season.

 

August 15, 2017 6:48 pm  #36


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

Barker wrote:

Ah, this thread. It's a comfort to find my thoughts echoed here (and articulated so well)! Either there was some level of advance planning behind the inclusion of baby Watson in the dramatis personae, or the writers wearied of scrabbling around for a suitable episode title and impulsively decided to call it the Sign of Three and throw in a surprise pregnancy at the last minute. Problem is, neither alternative is without precedent. Advance planning would mean the continued insinuation of the gay subtext as has been mentioned previously. And if I remember correctly, the now legendary dialogue in the pool scene was a last-minute addition to TGG; I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out TSOT was called something else until Moffat thought of this cleverer twist, and given their production schedule they just rolled it out and swept potential problems under the carpet until next season.

This could be true, but I do have a problem with thinking that skilled and experienced writers like Moffat would do such a thing. Of course, that might just be me being naive, but I do think that Moffat have enough experience and skill as writers to plan in advance. That is - to understand that a baby could complicate things, especially if their end game was always to show the origins story of Sherlock and to end where most stories began.

I do think that Susi has a point about the pregnancy being a huge part of why John stayed and gave the relationship with Mary another go. Her existence also adds another layer to John's "cheating" (not sure if I will call it cheating per say, but that's for a different thread, I guess).

"You want to know when I texted her? When you were feeding our daughter, that's when".

That adds a whole other level of emotional guilt and power to John's situation.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 15, 2017 6:51 pm)


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August 15, 2017 7:37 pm  #37


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

Yes, it does add something extra.  It also kind of gives a reason for John to think of straying when he otherwise wouldn't (dissatisfaction and stress of parenthood).  But I kind of like the idea that Rosie initially came about because they wanted that punchline and title in TSOT.   I don't see anything wrong with them coming up with that and then writing around it.  A bit like "what if the secret brother was a secret sister?"

I'm not convinced that she was added to give John a reason to stay with Mary, because IIRC, that's never mentioned.  It's not made a thing of.  Whether he stays with Mary or not seems to be about his relationship with her, rather than about the child.   In the end we see how desperately he loves her too, and it seems that a baby isn't needed.  

 

August 15, 2017 7:39 pm  #38


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

Yes, that is a good point, Liberty. We sort of assume that he wouldn't have stayed with her without Rosie, but his grief for her is honest. Mixed with guilt, yes, but it's clear that he is devastated by her loss.

Then again, we also have the "I used to like it [Mary]"-comment, which also says a lot. So I still believe that his feelings towards Mary, and thus his grief, were complicated.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
     Thread Starter
 

August 15, 2017 7:41 pm  #39


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I honestly don't think they had enough time together.  They would have worked things out.
Rosie was just a bonus.


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August 15, 2017 8:46 pm  #40


Re: The problem of Rosie Watson

I agree.  If anything, Rosie was pushing them apart, rather then bringing them together, in the way that babies sometimes do. They did seem to have things worked out by the end, just before Mary died. 

I don't remember John ever citing the baby as a reason for staying with Mary (or for not being able to leave her). I think it becomes apparent that he decides to stay and take on the problems of her future because he loves her, not because she is pregnant.  And when Mary dies, he even gives up on Rosie for a while, rather than going the other way and clinging to her. 
 

 

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