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June 9, 2017 9:48 pm  #8081


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

Not sure if you guys have seen this particular interview. It's with both Mark and Steven. The second part is about Mary and brings nothing new, but it is kind of interesting to hear their thoughts about the "bromance" of Sherlock and John:



 

I can't watch it from my mobile and won't have access to a PC anytime soon but now I am curious. What did they say?


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"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

June 9, 2017 9:49 pm  #8082


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

That Mrs Hudson is the only nice character! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 9, 2017 10:29 pm  #8083


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Hahaha!

Ok, trying a quick transcipt:

Interview: Ok, one of the coolest ting about this show, is that you guys have been able to keep the the modern bromance of an age old relationship between Sherlock and Watson. What's it like for you guys, as your growing their relationship, to make sure that it feels real, that it feels authentic, you know, heading into this season?

Moffat: It's a weird thing, because like a lot of male friendships - we were discussing this the other night - it's of course never stated at all. That's the thing about male friendship: it's literally never talked about. They solve crimes, they have adventures together, they grouch (?) each other a bit, the friendship is just there. It is not in the words, it's in the fact that they are a unit, they complete each other, they are a duo...

Gatiss. There is a wonderful quote from one of the orignal stories where Watson persuades Sherlock Holmes to (come out?) for some air, much against his will, and he says, they are walking in the park, and he says: "We walked in silence for the most part, as befits two men who know each other intimately". I never forgot that, I remember reading that as a child thinking "that seems like a wonderful expression of the truth of it". But to be  honest, to answer your question, we, over the years, we're trying to evolve it and to make sure that the characters actually have somewhere to go. Sherlock can not be the same person as he was in episode 1, equally, Dr. Watson is a self-confessed adrenaline junkie, and they have to find new places to go. This season particularly really tests them.

Interviewer: Benedict mentions, this season gets a bit darker.

Moffat. We turned the lights off.

Interviewer: Ripping off (?) the relationship they sort of have, how far can you push them before it eventually snaps?

Gatiss. Who knows?

Moffat. We will certainly try to find out.

Gatiss. We've pushed them quite far in this.

Moffat. I think this one is, yeah, I'm just running it through in my head, I mean, you're gonna get all the pushing you want.

The rest of the interview is about Mary, so I won't transcribe that here.

Last edited by Vhanja (June 9, 2017 10:35 pm)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
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Team Hudders!
 
 

June 10, 2017 4:41 am  #8084


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Thank you Vhanja! :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

July 19, 2017 9:24 pm  #8085


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 20, 2017 6:24 am  #8086


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It's a shame "dear" is going out of fashion (apart from in more formal letters)!

My guess is that the difference between the two is that Watson is acting as narrator for most of the stories, whereas Holmes is addressing Watson directly.  As for "my", I've never particularly argued against Johnlock being intended in the original stories, but I do think that it may have been common for people to call each other "my" something ("my dear sir", "my dear madam", if being more formal).  Which I suppose became just "my dear", or "dear" in letters.

Last edited by Liberty (July 20, 2017 6:36 am)

 

July 20, 2017 8:07 am  #8087


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I am not a native speaker but I have quite a lot of stories about gay relationships. To me it seemed that the term "my dear boy", spoken between adult men, has a very intimate, if not outright homoerotic, connotation. Maybe I am wrong but this was my impression.  


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 20, 2017 5:10 pm  #8088


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

You could well be right!  I'm a native speaker, but not familiar with Victorian speech (apart from reading books from the time, etc.).  "My dear boy" always makes me think of that famous line from Laurence Olivier to Dustin Hoffman (apparently wrongly reported) which is sometimes "quoted" as "My dear boy, why don't you just try acting?".  I didn't get the impression that it was ever meant to be homoerotic or imply any sort of relationship like that between them - it's just a funny story about the differences in acting styles.    (Although, of course, there's something a bit theatrical and camp about "dear boy", in modern times). 

 

July 20, 2017 7:25 pm  #8089


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think there is a lot of mannerism and way of speaking that gets lost from Victorian era to our. We should never try to read Victorian through moderns eyes.

Having that said, I have no idea how Victorian homoerotism would sound like either, so I have nothing to compare it against.

I just think that, consider the time, Doyle would not be able to write anything that could be regarded as "common" when it came to homosexuality. And my very personal opinion is that to think him otherwise, is wishful thinking. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
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Team Hudders!
 
 

July 21, 2017 6:41 am  #8090


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree about being careful about reading Victorian prose with modern eyes.  I suppose my grandparents generation (sadly departed) were from the Victorian era and they used "dear" a lot more than we do.  It can be used romantically, but I wouldn't say it had romantic connotations, as it is/was used so often non-romantically (and is used in formal letters!).

"My dear boy" I think depends on the context.  In the Oliver "quote", it's verging on patronising.  In a loving moment, I think it could be romantic.  But if, for instance, pointing out Watson's lack of awareness or teaching him something, or even just conversational, then it wouldn't come across that way.  We probably need to try to find the quotes in context and see what we think!  I'm off to work now, but if I have time later I'll have a look. 

Last edited by Liberty (July 21, 2017 6:46 am)

 

July 21, 2017 9:05 am  #8091


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It was this collection, among others, that gave me the idea. There are a quite a lot of "dears" in there:

http://rictornorton.co.uk/dearboy.htm


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 21, 2017 7:03 pm  #8092


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

A nice collection! 

Anyway, here's a very quick search through the main stories for "dear boy".  Very superficial and I'm sure I must have missed something out, but maybe it does give an idea of context.  Warning: slight spoilers for some of the stories!

The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes
The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet
A father talking about his son:  And now I must fly to my dear boy to apologise to him for the wrong which I have done him.

The Sign of the Four
Holmes to Watson: Pshaw, my dear boy! it was simplicity itself.

The Return of Sherlock Holmes
The Adventure of the Priory School
A school principal about a missing child: “At last we have a clue!” he cried. “Thank heaven! at last we are on the dear boy’s track! ...”

The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes
The “Gloria Scott”

Father to son again: Such, in a few words, my dear boy, is the history of this terrible business in which I was involved.

The Greek Interpreter
 Mycroft to Sherlock
“Royal Artillery, I fancy,” said Sherlock.
“And a widower.”
“But with a child.”
“Children, my dear boy, children.”


The Casebook of Sherlock Holmes
The Adventure of the Three Gables

A woman about her ex:
He was a dear boy, Douglas, but it so chanced that he could not fit into my plans.

The Adventure of the Sussex Vampire
This was a small matter, however, compared with her conduct to her own child, a dear boy just under one year of age.

I can't find the other Holmes/Watson one, although I haven't searched very thoroughly! 


 

 

July 24, 2017 9:05 am  #8093


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

No takers?  I get the impression that it's often used in a paternal way, and can be affectionate, patronising, etc., but I'm not really getting the impression of it being romantic.  Of course there are differences here, in that some are using it to address the person, and some when talking about the person.  And we don't have enough examples to draw any firm conclusions!  

 

August 15, 2017 10:02 pm  #8094


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I want to put this here:

http://nemoholmes.tumblr.com/post/164216946376/i-want-to-know-your-interpretation-and-explanation

Because even though I honestly do not think Moffat ever considered Johnlock an option, I am still slighly confused by this scene. It's one of those moments where I go: "Well, if you didn't think Johnlock - why did you put it in?!"


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

August 15, 2017 10:11 pm  #8095


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Same here. I have no explanation for this except Johnlock. The same hieß btw for the tarmac scene aka Casablanca aka Bodyguard. 😉


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 15, 2017 10:17 pm  #8096


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

To be honest, when I first saw the tarmac scene, I was hugely disappointed. I am well aware about the trope (and maybe reality) of English men being stuck-up and emotinally repressed - but, come on. If you honestly don't think you ever will see your best friend again, you hug! You don't give him a usesless handshake! That was the most dissatisfactory scene of the entire series for me.

I remember J.K. Rowling disagreeing with the American director Christopher Columbus about the early Harry Potter-movies. He wanted Harry and Ron to hug, and JKR said that English boys wouldn't hug unless their lives were at stake. 

Well, here lives are at stake (or so they think, at least) - and they are still not hugging.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 15, 2017 10:20 pm)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

August 16, 2017 5:49 am  #8097


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Two drunk guys who love each other platonically, but the alcohol allows them to admit they're not afraid to show their affection for each other.
John stumbles, or rather falls into Sherlock's knee after all.
Possibly his addled brain may have thought it could receive a sharp response form Mr nofeelings...

I thought you were all talking about Moriarty's tarmac scene...is it tarmac, I can't remember?
Absolutely full on gay there, no question.
This is the marked contrast between the interaction between two best friends in HLV.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 16, 2017 6:37 am  #8098


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I'm not sure how much of that scene is scripted and how much Martin and Benedict were left to do their stuff!   But I have to say, it doesn't look sexual to me.  I've seen drunk male platonic friends being much more touchy feely than that.  I honestly just don't see sexual tension.   It's kind of funny and cute because they are normally so buttoned up. 

Now, I could be reading it wrong, and even though we know Moftiss didn't intend Johnlock, this scene could have been intended to show a sort of semi-flirting due to the alcohol.  But to be honest, I don't even see that.  There's kind of an innocence about it too, as if they get reduced to being more childlike.  However, I'll watch again when I get a chance and let you know!

I don't think it would have been out of place for Sherlock and John to hug on the tarmac.  They'd kind of done it before at the wedding - well, John had, although Sherlock had been a bit stiff (no pun intended).  This scene was more somber and lacked the exuberance of the wedding.  And also, I wonder if they were both trying to avoid being set off (crying, etc.).  I think it's fine because we have the progression in their relationship in S4!   In the end, John and Sherlock is the "love story" of the whole series.  Does it matter that it's not romantic/sexual?

 

August 16, 2017 6:44 am  #8099


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

Same here. I have no explanation for this except Johnlock. The same hieß btw for the tarmac scene aka Casablanca aka Bodyguard. 😉

I feel like that about many scenes. Sherlock leaving the wedding for example.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 16, 2017 6:57 am  #8100


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Moftiss have openly said that Sherlock leaving the wedding is a reference to the end of The Green Death Doctor Who series.  (Where the Doctor's companion gets engaged, and he leaves the party alone). 

I think it also fits well with the theme of friendship in that episode in particular, and the theme of Sherlock choosing to be alone. 

 

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