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February 24, 2017 5:05 pm  #121


Re: What is real in TFP?

Indeed.


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March 22, 2017 7:14 pm  #122


Re: What is real in TFP?

One of my pet theories - Eurus is not real but represents the dark parts of Sherlock. I even found a mathematical equation to prove this. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


A Simple Equation

Eurus is in Sherrinford. 
Sherlock is Sherrinford.* 
Eurus is in Sherlock. 

*ACD originally wanted to name him Sherrinford Hope. And pretending to change a person’s name into a building’s name just to represent the person again is just what the writers like to do.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 22, 2017 7:18 pm  #123


Re: What is real in TFP?

She darn well better be real. 
I love her and am enjoying writing about her.
She's real to me at least.


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March 22, 2017 7:20 pm  #124


Re: What is real in TFP?

Why not write about just because she might not be real? We write about Emelia Ricoletti and Redbeard and Lady Carmichael as well. For me she is an amazing personification of Sherlock's dark side and this is how I enjoy writing about her. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 22, 2017 7:22 pm  #125


Re: What is real in TFP?

The Ricoletti case was real, wasn't it?
Anyhow, I see absolutely no reason to think Eurus is not real, I can't believe they haven't addressed this in any interviews and I'm fairly certain they have...


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March 22, 2017 7:27 pm  #126


Re: What is real in TFP?

I am sure they would not tell us if S4 was not the end. Which they have not confirmed so far. But coming back to my post: 
Holmes never had any siblings except Mycroft. We can assume that they had parents so the parents are Canon in a way. A third brother/sister is not. The essential characters have never been changed by Moftiss: Mrs Hudson is the landlady, Lestrade is the cop, Mary is Watson's wife, Moriarty is the villain. There was no need at all to create a third sibling. To me this is the most baffling thing they have ever done.

And I find it hilarious that they chose to put the invented sibling into Sherrinford (= Sherlock Holmes). 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 22, 2017 7:29 pm  #127


Re: What is real in TFP?

I do think TFP is real (it's just their universe that has become more fantastic), but I kind of like this idea.  Before TFP aired, I did spend a while playing with the idea that Sherlock himself would be the antagonist for the last episode of the series - I was almost disappointed when it turned out to be an actual evil sibling after all!  

 

March 22, 2017 11:11 pm  #128


Re: What is real in TFP?

Better an evil sibling than an evil Sherlock!
 

 

March 23, 2017 6:49 am  #129


Re: What is real in TFP?

Well yes and for me the story fits.
I don't want to say too much more and make myself more unpopular than I already am, but there is certainly a level of frustration for me with this kind of debate, and it's on different levels:
we get these theories, but we can't even try to counter them, without being met by: but Mark and Steven would just lie, anyway.  You know how they allegedly lied about Moriarty being dead?  Well, I for one believed them and do believe them.
Oh well I've started now and I'll finish: it honestly does just concern me if there is even any sense of:  I don't like the story we were given, it doesn't fit with my head canon and so I'm going to offer another version. 
This may be an entirely personal thing and may not be an issue for anybody else at all, but I do get heart sick when it seems for some: nothing is ever real! It's an even greater coincidence that this only seems to occur when a certain scene, story line or character isn't liked.
I fully accept the last series was very different(as I've previously said, they all felt different to me), but for me that is because they had to bring the story to some kind of conclusion and in case it was their last shot, they literally threw the kitchen sink at it.
It worked for me and actually left me wanting more..dunno if that's good or bad, but it is as it is.
Now before I get the: well what's the point of being on a discussion forum and not discussing thing: alternative versions are fine, though again personally I think this is a different thing to analysis of what we are actually shown.
Further, for me, I take my different versions to fan fic...which of course then people would be free to share with others. There is also the fact that I have read some posts which has made me think: why are they even on this forum?  They seem to hate the show!
You know I wonder even if there was a suggestion that an alternative version may just be a pet theory would(for me) be fine, it's when it constantly seems to be set against the premise that what we were shown wasn't real and(for me) therefore somehow wrong, that I possibly find most difficult to deal with.
I know some people think certain things weren't true to canon or to a character or a story line, but we could all cherry pick.  We can all nit-pick, which we do!
But at the end of the day, the prosaic remains true: this is Mark and Steven's version, it either works for you or it doesn't.
Yes we know they use dream scenes and mind palace etc...but other than in TAB- proportionately so, it doesn't negate whole vital stoy lines like Sherlock shooting  a guy in the face.
As I always show on here, if I am proved wrong about something:  I am the first to say so.

Last edited by besleybean (March 23, 2017 7:10 am)


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March 23, 2017 7:42 am  #130


Re: What is real in TFP?

kgreen20 wrote:

Better an evil sibling than an evil Sherlock!
 

I imagined that they he would have been good again by the end of the episode!  But they played with making us doubt him for a while in the previous series' and I wondered if they'd take it further than this one.   

Incidentally, I wonder if "Sherrinford" was a nice way to give us a clue that this was about the other one, but without hinting that it was a sister. 

BB, I'm not a fan of the idea (that it wasn't real) either, but I also feel a bit bereft, oddly, because TFP did tie everything up so well.   There was so much to discuss before S4 aired, and now it feels as if S4 has answered almost all our questions and finished things off nicely, and there seems to be little hope of a S5 to speculate about.   It's almost as if you have to pull that apart to find something to discuss - what if everything wasn't as it seems?  These theories are coming to the forefront because what else is there?  Even the really big debates, like Mary and Johnlock are all neatly resolved.   Maybe it's a testament to the writers that they did tie things up so well.   It shouldn't make me sad - and sad is too strong a word anyway - but almost feels like there's something missing now! 

I do think it can be metaphorical as well as real, though. 

 

March 23, 2017 8:15 am  #131


Re: What is real in TFP?

Thank you for your detailed posts. Just in short: I am a writer, a novelist by profession. And for me my editors one of the most important criteria is that the story has to make sense. I feel that with TFP a lot of people - viewers and critics alike - felt that it did not. The ratings were low, the reviews mostly bad. And the conclusion often was: the writing was bad. They got arrogant. They sunk their own show.
This was hurtful to read and I started asking myself what could be the reason. Trying to make sense of S4 and most of all TFP for me is a way of defending the writers. For me the whole of S4 is very different and dreamlike.
And besides, besley, this has always been a place for discussion. For polite critique. And I am not ready to stop enjoying and discussing the show yet.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 23, 2017 8:19 am  #132


Re: What is real in TFP?

On the one hand I wasn't too keen on TFP, the general feel of it and some plot points but on the other hand I did enjoy many character moments and it is still Sherlock and as we only get only get three episodes per series I'll take what I can get. I do however think that what we saw was real, does it bother me that other people don't? No, why should it. If that's how people want to view the episode and that's how it makes sense for them well then who am I to judge.

I find it quite interesting reading people's theories even if I completely disagree with them. It's fascinating how two people can watch the exact same thing (goes for anything not just Sherlock) and come up with two completely different ideas about what they have just watched. I never view my POV as right and others' as wrong and if other people do and see my view as wrong (which I haven't actually seen anyone do on here) well then that's up to them, it has zero impact on how I watch the show.

Last edited by Lis (March 23, 2017 8:34 am)


                                                                                                                      

All lives end. All hearts are broken. Caring is not an advantage.

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March 23, 2017 8:51 am  #133


Re: What is real in TFP?

Agreed.  And you are right, it is fascinating how differently people can read the same piece of art.


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 23, 2017 4:52 pm  #134


Re: What is real in TFP?

Even better when the artists are living and tell us all about their work.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 17, 2017 10:16 am  #135


Re: What is real in TFP?

I still wonder how one can believe that this episode is to be taken at face value if it starts with doctored footage and ends with the set designer himself cleaning up the set, thereby breaking the fourth wall. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

July 17, 2017 4:28 pm  #136


Re: What is real in TFP?

SusiGo wrote:

I still wonder how one can believe that this episode is to be taken at face value if it starts with doctored footage and ends with the set designer himself cleaning up the set, thereby breaking the fourth wall. 

There are aspects of TFP that I thought were wonderful and that made me happy.
However, I agree that there is an overall feel of unreality to the episode.  It has a very dream like feel, as did much of S4.   It would be fascinating if in the future we did find out that some things did not actually occur.


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Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
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July 17, 2017 4:44 pm  #137


Re: What is real in TFP?

Yes, these are lovely moments which proves that things can be lovely and fucky at the same time. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

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