BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



February 2, 2017 8:04 pm  #201


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I think at that point John was still angry with Sherlock and probably thought and said all kinds of things about him that he didn't truly mean, like for example later in the episode when he said that Sherlock had killed Mary. I'm sure that when his thoughts are not consumed by anger and grief he doesn't actually see Sherlock as a monster.


                                                                                                                      

All lives end. All hearts are broken. Caring is not an advantage.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2v28geh.jpg
 

February 2, 2017 8:05 pm  #202


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Well he did execute a guy...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 2, 2017 8:06 pm  #203


Re: TLD Headscratchers

True, but I still don't believe John truly sees Sherlock as a monster.

John also executed the cabbie so he can't really talk haha.

Last edited by Lis (February 2, 2017 8:07 pm)


                                                                                                                      

All lives end. All hearts are broken. Caring is not an advantage.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2v28geh.jpg
 

February 2, 2017 8:08 pm  #204


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I was going to say that, but then he did think Sherlock was about to die.
He wasn't the one who squashed his shoe down on a dying man.

Last edited by besleybean (February 2, 2017 8:08 pm)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 2, 2017 8:15 pm  #205


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Again, all true. I'm not debating who is above who in terms of morals, although personally I think they have both done some questionable and also very honourable things, it's just my personal belief that whatever Sherlock may have done John doesn't truly see him as a monster...and neither do I.


                                                                                                                      

All lives end. All hearts are broken. Caring is not an advantage.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2v28geh.jpg
 

February 2, 2017 8:17 pm  #206


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I agree on both counts.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 2, 2017 10:26 pm  #207


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Lis wrote:

I think at that point John was still angry with Sherlock and probably thought and said all kinds of things about him that he didn't truly mean, like for example later in the episode when he said that Sherlock had killed Mary. I'm sure that when his thoughts are not consumed by anger and grief he doesn't actually see Sherlock as a monster.

I generally agree, but I´m still intrigued by the wording in that scene. Mary / John´s subconcious literally said: "Despite being the cleverest man, he is not a monster...." 
To me it seems as if the main issue John has with Sherlock is his cleverness... he regards this cleverness as monstrous.
John saw many atrocities in the actual war, so Sherlock killing Magnussen can´t be his real issue - he experienced much worse.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

February 3, 2017 12:22 am  #208


Re: TLD Headscratchers

nakahara wrote:

Lis wrote:

I think at that point John was still angry with Sherlock and probably thought and said all kinds of things about him that he didn't truly mean, like for example later in the episode when he said that Sherlock had killed Mary. I'm sure that when his thoughts are not consumed by anger and grief he doesn't actually see Sherlock as a monster.

I generally agree, but I´m still intrigued by the wording in that scene. Mary / John´s subconcious literally said: "Despite being the cleverest man, he is not a monster...." 
To me it seems as if the main issue John has with Sherlock is his cleverness... he regards this cleverness as monstrous.
John saw many atrocities in the actual war, so Sherlock killing Magnussen can´t be his real issue - he experienced much worse.
 

Yeah it does seem like Sherlock's cleverness is the reason for John calling him monster but I think this could still be due to John's anger and upset towards Sherlock. John is still angry with Sherlock because of what happened to Mary (possibly John at that time thinks that Sherlock's cleverness and his need to show off is what got Mary killed, although he didn't actually see what happened) and in that moment he is also angry/upset that Sherlock has barged back in to his life by being his usual clever self seemingly knowing what decisions John would make long before he made them. Due to his anger/upset John is not thinking clearly and is only focused on the fact that Sherlock is clever. In his mind he reduces Sherlock down to the single quality of being clever, ignoring his humanity and any other qualities and, as shown with Eurus later, cleverness without humanity can create a monster. 


                                                                                                                      

All lives end. All hearts are broken. Caring is not an advantage.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2v28geh.jpg
 

February 3, 2017 6:38 am  #209


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Yes, I am only glad that by the end of S 4, we are all heart...with all of the characters.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 11, 2017 10:04 pm  #210


Re: TLD Headscratchers

What happened with Bill Wiggins, I wonder? Was he just used for Sherlock´s plan and then unceremoniously kicked back to the street?
Even if he was a junkie, he was a human being with feelings and some dignity....
Or was he in cahoots with Sherlock in all this?


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

February 11, 2017 10:05 pm  #211


Re: TLD Headscratchers

He left voluntarily!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 11, 2017 10:16 pm  #212


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Really? Then why was Sherlock screaming at him and (based on the sounds of their fight) violently kicking him out a minute before he left (ran away)?


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

February 11, 2017 10:18 pm  #213


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I just took it that Billy left because he couldn't stand Sherlock rampaging about.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 11, 2017 10:20 pm  #214


Re: TLD Headscratchers

besleybean wrote:

I just took it that Billy left because he couldn't stand Sherlock rampaging about.

He was running away like he was scared, actually.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

May 29, 2017 7:15 pm  #215


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I am still trying to wrap my head around Sherlock's behaviour in this episode. How much of his behaviour was down to drug-induced paranoia and how much was deliberate?

I am in particular talking about him losing it when he realises he wasn't visited by Culverton-Smith's daughter. Was he really losing it or was he acting? Was everything he did part of the end game? Did he deduce that it wasn't Smith's daughter, that it would lead to a confrotation, that he acted paranoid, that John would beat him up and that would end him in Smith's hopsital so John could save him?

It doesn't add up, because there is nothing telling us that he didn't believe "Smith's daughter" then and there. He does seem honestly surprised.

Then again, if he had actually been visited by his daughter, how did he plan that showdown to go? And how would that help with his end game of getting John back? Maybe he imagined Smith would get desperate and set guards on Sherlock, and John could rescue him from there. Perhaps that was his original plan?

What do you guys think?


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

May 29, 2017 7:19 pm  #216


Re: TLD Headscratchers

I think Sherlock was walking a fine line between pretending and yet being on the verge of really losing control. 
Thing is he needs people like John to act as he predicts they will..for Sherlock to be able to make it all work.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

May 29, 2017 7:26 pm  #217


Re: TLD Headscratchers

Again, I'm due for a rewatch, and it's something I haven't made my mind up over yet.    I do think he must have known more than he was letting on, because he wasn't planning for Culverton to be exposed at that point - he was planning to get further into danger so that John would save him.   He had set up the walking stick to record before going to the mortuary, so seems to have planned becoming a patient, John leaving it there, etc. 

But I agree, he doesn't seem to have cottoned on to the puzzle of Culverton's daughter. 

 

May 29, 2017 10:11 pm  #218


Re: TLD Headscratchers

It makes me think of TRF, where you also cannot really say where the game ends and true emotions start.

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum