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May 28, 2017 4:35 pm  #8001


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Hmph...


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May 28, 2017 4:58 pm  #8002


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Is it a good hmph or a bad hmph?

 

May 28, 2017 5:01 pm  #8003


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Or maybe a neutral hmph?

 

May 28, 2017 5:01 pm  #8004


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Mixture...
I had been good trying to stay on topic!
Honestly, I think it's all a really interesting discussion.
But to the point of this thread, we either think Sherlock is attracted to Irene or he isn't and I think he is...we are all human, as he says himself.
Sexual attraction is(not for all, I know)  a large part of being human


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May 28, 2017 5:14 pm  #8005


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Staying on topic: maybe Sherlock doesn't discriminate so he's slept with both John and Irene

No seriously, thank you Liberty for presenting your chain of thought in such a great detail. I know what you mean but I still see more sadness than calculating triumph after the mortuary scene. This is probably how non-johnlockers feel when presented with pages and pages of evidence and still going, Nope, I don't see it


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"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." Context matters.
 

May 28, 2017 5:41 pm  #8006


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Quite so.


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May 28, 2017 5:54 pm  #8007


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Of course Sherlock slept with John. On the stairs, after the stag… whatever… thingy…

 

May 28, 2017 5:59 pm  #8008


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Of course Sherlock slept with John. On the stairs, after the stag… whatever… thingy…

 

May 28, 2017 5:59 pm  #8009


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I know...what are they like?
How quickly they all forget!


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May 28, 2017 6:18 pm  #8010


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think there is some genuine sadness.  I think he is starting to fall for Irene, and helping her disappear means that he may never be able to contact her or see her again.  But what he has to do there is convince Mycroft that Irene is dead - of course he's not going to come across as triumphant.

On first viewing, I'm sure I remember thinking that Sherlock was devastated and trying to hide has sadness at the very end, when John tries to tell him about Irene and he asks for the phone.    So Sherlock acting as if he's hiding sadness, to cover the fact that actually he's helping Irene escape, is pretty convincing!  It's the same situation again, except we're told the truth just after!

And sorry for all the pages - there is still more I could write because it all fits together, but it would become even more massive!  The short version is Sherlock knowing she was alive "works" and makes sense, whereas Sherlock believing she was dead doesn't make sense - it's a plot hole.   There's no reason for the phone to be there if she was dead.   The reason for her to die is because she doesn't have her phone, and yet she willingly gives him it - is it supposed be a suicide?  Even if he wasn't quite clever enough to deduce that she was alive, and actually believed she was dead, there's no real reason for him to phone Mycroft and tell him to look for a body.   And as soon as Sherlock had a good look at the body, he would know that she wasn't dead.  "He did know where to look".   I think it's fine to assume that the audience would (temporarily) believe Irene is dead, but it doesn't make any sense for Sherlock to. 

Anyway, where it's relevant here is about Sherlock's state of mind when he wrote the song - was he thinking about somebody who'd died, partly through his actions, or was he yearning for somebody he had saved, but had no contact with? I do agree that he hadn't had sex with her at the point: but I think what Eurus is picking up on there is the romantic/sexual attraction rather than the physical act (and disturbingly, she compares it to a violent act).   That's why I don't think it 100% confirms that Sherlock had sex with Irene.   But I do think the nature of their relationship as romantic/sexual is 100% confirmed.

 

May 29, 2017 5:40 pm  #8011


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the convention thread, but I came across this, and as we were talking about Sherlock's relationship with Irene and how that relates to Johnlock I'll stick it here for now!  Steven seems definitely open to the possibility of them having sex ... and "tearing a room apart!"

https://chasingtoby.tumblr.com/post/161136773193/sherlocked-irene

 

May 29, 2017 6:14 pm  #8012


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It seems that he keeps it deliberately open. He is open to the possibility that maybe the meet for occasional sex, and maybe they don't. So it seems it's up to people watching what kind of relationship they think Shelrock and Irene have.

Interestingly enough (an sadly so), he is not that open when he speaks about Johnlock. He is much clearer about that not being part of their show and their version. 

Last edited by Vhanja (May 29, 2017 6:15 pm)


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May 29, 2017 6:18 pm  #8013


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes this is just the point for this thread:  there is no speculation over Johnlock, it is a definite no- for the team, at least.


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May 29, 2017 6:27 pm  #8014


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

It seems that he keeps it deliberately open. He is open to the possibility that maybe the meet for occasional sex, and maybe they don't. So it seems it's up to people watching what kind of relationship they think Shelrock and Irene have.

Interestingly enough (an sadly so), he is not that open when he speaks about Johnlock. He is much clearer about that not being part of their show and their version. 

I wonder why, for in S1 to S3 the signs have been pretty obvious.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

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May 29, 2017 6:29 pm  #8015


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Certainly for John: women all the way.


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May 29, 2017 6:59 pm  #8016


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think there's no doubt about Sherlock and Irene's attraction to each other, but it looks like we're free to imagine how far they got physically!  I've tended to be of the mindset that they didn't do because (a) Sherlock is so scared of becoming involved and sex would only make him fall harder, and (b) I prefer Sherlock to remain celibate.  And maybe a little bit of (c) how could the reality ever match up to the fantasy with those two!   But I'm also happy to embrace the idea of the meetups at Harvesters (I imagine somewhere more exotic in reality, but the Harvester idea is too good to let go!). 

Whereas with Johnlock, I think they've been quite clear all along that there is no sexual attraction, never mind physical acts. 

And I suppose Johnlock would change the story they're telling, so there has to be a right answer rather than an open one. Whereas whether or not Sherlock and Irene consummated their relationship, doesn't really change it.

 

May 29, 2017 7:03 pm  #8017


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Schmiezi wrote:

I wonder why, for in S1 to S3 the signs have been pretty obvious.

Only for those who read them that way.

Liberty: I agree with your points. I also prefer Sherlock to stay away, because he is too scared of the consequences. Or, even better, he might indulge after S4, because he is more emotionally mature now than he was back in ASiB.

(Sorry, guys, I really struggle with was/were and past tense versions of various verbs and stuff. I think my posts of late have been riddles with grammatical errors).

Last edited by Vhanja (May 29, 2017 7:06 pm)


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 29, 2017 7:57 pm  #8018


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 29, 2017 8:02 pm  #8019


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Fantastic.
Do some people think she tells lies too?


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May 29, 2017 8:08 pm  #8020


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

What I liked in particular was that she was gracious enough to understand that people need to vent and that they are angry (which makes her much more gracious than me), but that she draws the line at demands (which I have no problem at all understanding).


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