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May 27, 2017 6:36 am  #7941


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I would agree if we were talking about fan fic writers. But let's face it: Sherlock is business. At least the BBC is not doing it for love but for ratings and money.

What I see is that they added a character that has not been there before (Mary), and they took away most Johnlock hints, and in the end, the ratings of S4 hit an all time low.

When were we first informed that there may not be more Sherlock in the future? Maybe after S4, the BBC just does not want to Pay for it anymore, which would be extremely sad.

And another thought: if we agree thst they were writing S4 for themselves, true to what they really wanted to do, doesn't that mean S1 and 2 were not what they wanted?


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

May 27, 2017 6:43 am  #7942


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think they always did (write what they wanted).   I suspected at one point that they were being careful not to alienate people who shipped them, and so wanted to leave some ambiguity there.   But later on, I thought that probably wasn't the case.  I remember reading an interview where they said that they hadn't yet decided on Sherlock's sexuality in S1.   So any ambiguity about his sexuality in S1 isn't to please the viewers but to leave things open for them as writers as I suppose. 

I also think they were always very clear when talking about the show that it was a friendship.   There was never any queer baiting.  In fact, they brought the question up in the show several times, and made the answer clear, I think.   Starting with Mrs Hudson shipping them straight away in ASIP - I think it's absolutely clear to the audience at that point that they're not a couple! 

I think that even the ending to TFP has nothing to do with trying to please everybody (or with being cowards).  If they were trying to please everybody, they wouldn't have done something as self-indulgent (in a good way!) as TFP!  I think the ending is just what they hinted they'd been planning to do all along - setting them up as the heroes of legend.    The fact that ships have been left open is incidental.    And I do think you have to squint a bit to try to see any of the ships (Sherlolly, Mystrade, etc.).   My feeling is that that the episode is good fuel for fanfiction, but those ships would not evolve naturally in S5, if it happened (not that they couldn't happen.  Just that I don't think they have been set up.  It just maybe feels that way because those relationships have been left in a positive place).

And I think that's particularly the case for Johnlock, because the whole show has been the story of their friendship.   A romance would change that story.

Last edited by Liberty (May 27, 2017 6:44 am)

 

May 27, 2017 7:04 am  #7943


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I also think it's a bit of a shame that they actually did something that hasn't really been appreciated - when they made a character who wasn't (at that point) going to be romantically involved, they didn't assume, or indicate that the audience should assume that he was straight.   We're kind of invited to speculate about whether he's gay, straight, asexual, etc., but he's never "straight by default".   (If he's maybe seen as straight later on, it's because the limited evidence shows that he's most likely to be, and not because people are straight unless proven otherwise). 

 

May 27, 2017 7:26 am  #7944


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

On all levels: well said, Liberty.


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May 27, 2017 1:15 pm  #7945


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree, good posts, Liberty.


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May 27, 2017 6:30 pm  #7946


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

I think they always did (write what they wanted).   I suspected at one point that they were being careful not to alienate people who shipped them, and so wanted to leave some ambiguity there.   But later on, I thought that probably wasn't the case.

I wonder if they really cared about people who shipped Johnlock when doing S1. The ambiguity was there right from the start.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

May 27, 2017 6:35 pm  #7947


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Schmiezi wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I think they always did (write what they wanted).   I suspected at one point that they were being careful not to alienate people who shipped them, and so wanted to leave some ambiguity there.   But later on, I thought that probably wasn't the case.

I wonder if they really cared about people who shipped Johnlock when doing S1. The ambiguity was there right from the start.

I think they did everything to put this ambiguity there. To the point that it was barely ambiguous. But it's just my opinion, I know others don't see it this way.


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"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." Context matters.
 

May 27, 2017 6:44 pm  #7948


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

ewige wrote:

Schmiezi wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I think they always did (write what they wanted).   I suspected at one point that they were being careful not to alienate people who shipped them, and so wanted to leave some ambiguity there.   But later on, I thought that probably wasn't the case.

I wonder if they really cared about people who shipped Johnlock when doing S1. The ambiguity was there right from the start.

I think they did everything to put this ambiguity there. To the point that it was barely ambiguous. But it's just my opinion, I know others don't see it this way.

I'm with you!


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

May 27, 2017 7:15 pm  #7949


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Mark himself said they have been flirting with homoeroticism. And some may call it queerbaiting. Whatever you may call it, one cannot say that it was not there.


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 27, 2017 7:49 pm  #7950


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I just noticed. When Eurus, who is supposedly both smarter than Mycroft and Sherlock, asks the moment she hears Sherlock play Irene's theme: "Oh, you've had sex?" - that is a very clear indication that Sherlock did hold some kind of sexual attraction towards her.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 27, 2017 7:55 pm  #7951


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

I just noticed. When Eurus, who is supposedly both smarter than Mycroft and Sherlock, asks the moment she hears Sherlock play Irene's theme: "Oh, you've had sex?" - that is a very clear indication that Sherlock did hold some kind of sexual attraction towards her.

I wonder: did she state a fact, or did she just want to throw Sherlock off balance with her comment?


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

May 27, 2017 8:03 pm  #7952


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

But it is quite telling that she does the moment he plays Irene's theme? It's a deliberate way from the writers to again link Sherlock and Irene in a sexual way.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 27, 2017 8:04 pm)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 27, 2017 8:13 pm  #7953


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Aren't we following amonormativity again? In the show, there is not a single hint that they had sex. And yet, most people (including Benedict ;-) assume they shared more than a battle of intellect and seduction.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

May 27, 2017 8:31 pm  #7954


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It might be from the writer's side, but it still a rather obvious link between Sherlock, sex and Irene.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 27, 2017 9:12 pm  #7955


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't know if it has to mean that they had sex, but I think it does mean that that Sherlock's feelings towards Irene are romantic/sexual.  Why else would Eurus pick on that?  We know it's Irene's theme.  (And I suppose this was one for the fans, as the very casual viewer would likely not recognise the tune!). 

It's not amonormativity .  I think the "amo" between Sherlock and Irene is pretty explicit. 

 

May 27, 2017 9:13 pm  #7956


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I still say that Irene's theme represents Sherlock's (mostly hidden) human side, his hypothetical ability to have sex Not necessarily with Irene.


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"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." Context matters.
 

May 27, 2017 9:15 pm  #7957


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well I think I am agreeing with Liberty.
Pretty obvious to me:  Eurus tells Sherlock to play him.
He plays Irene's theme.
Eurus deduces he's had sex.
Sherlock has had sex with Irene.


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May 27, 2017 9:17 pm  #7958


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree with Liberty. I didn't mean that they necessarily had sex. Only that it shows that Sherlock did, in some way or other, experience sexual interest towards Irene.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 27, 2017 9:40 pm  #7959


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Is watching shows, and being fans of shows THAT MUCH about shipping, that the makers would think about possibility of any ships at the moment they didn't even know, if anyone would ever watch and like it?

IMO watching shows with such a stress on shipping takes away a great part of the actual perception. Sorry, I still cannot wrap my head around, why people do it AT ALL.

 

May 27, 2017 9:42 pm  #7960


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I really don't think any of the BBC Sherlock team have any interest in shipping at all.
They just try and write realistic characters, as true to the Canon as they feel they can...updating them of course.


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