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January 14, 2017 11:21 pm  #241


Re: John's violence

nakahara wrote:

Also, if John is a flawed character, certainly it´s not wrong to discuss his flaws?

And if he appears to be not saint but normal human being let's him be it and not send him to hell. 

Accually the more I am watching  the morgue scene the more I like it and consider it in line with the characters,development. The moment when Sherlock realizes that even if John looks like more less coping with Mary's death he is enormly devastated and feels sorrow for him. Sociopath ? No chance. Just higly developed  self defense mechanism as reaction on something in the past that hurt him badly. As he said in TAB - "Nobody made me , I made me."

 

January 14, 2017 11:25 pm  #242


Re: John's violence

Preceja wrote:

.... and not send him to hell. 

What post are you referring to?
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 15, 2017 8:32 am  #243


Re: John's violence

And anyway, hell doesn't exist! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png


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January 15, 2017 10:09 am  #244


Re: John's violence

nakahara wrote:

Also, if John is a flawed character, certainly it´s not wrong to discuss his flaws?

I agree, it isn't. But to me there is a difference between discussing his flaws with a nuanced perspective and with an honest intention of trying to understand the character, or to just post a more black-and-white kind of "John is absolutely horrible, abusive and not worthy of being Sherlock's friend!"

To me, the first one is discussing his flaws, the second one is bashing.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 15, 2017 10:11 am)


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January 15, 2017 10:24 am  #245


Re: John's violence

I have to say:  I understood it with Mary, I don't understand it with John.


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January 26, 2017 8:17 am  #246


Re: John's violence

Sorry for not reading the previous 244 posts. You can skip this if it has been discussed already.

We see John getting extremely violent towards Sherlock only hours after his session with Eurus. In TFP we are told that she can manipulate of re-program people within minutes. Now she has a vulnerable man in her office who had just lost his wife, was tortured by guilt, had rejected his best friend. A man she has targeted before. When her attempts at seducing John do not work, she tries to get to him in the disguise of a therapist. So what if her "treatment" was what caused the inexplicable and inexcusable violence towards Sherlock?
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

January 26, 2017 9:21 am  #247


Re: John's violence

Hm, interesting thought. I imagine it could be plausible, but I think that if it was, it would have been mentioned in the show. 


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

January 26, 2017 10:19 am  #248


Re: John's violence

The writers are known for not mentioning such things an episode later. And Eurus' skills only became known in TFP. Anyway, I much prefer the reading of a manipulated John to a John kicking Sherlock out of conviction. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

January 26, 2017 10:25 am  #249


Re: John's violence

I just think that if this was the explanation for it, the writers would have let us know. It could be, of course, and I wouldn't have a problem with that. But to be honest, I actually prefer it if it came from John himself. That is something I find much more interesting.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

January 26, 2017 10:35 am  #250


Re: John's violence

That is an interesting thought, indeed. I mean, John's aggressions against Sherlock are understandable to a certain degree, and we have seen him react aggressive before (TEH!). But this level of aggressiveness is another thing. It is not a normal reaction, not even for John. There is a difference between beating someone und nearly killing someone. Therefore it could be that John was manipulated by Euros (she had the opportunity to do that, at last).

 

January 26, 2017 2:19 pm  #251


Re: John's violence

It may be that she didn´t hypnotise him right away, but only influenced him through some words and suggestions to be more wary/paranoid towards Sherlock. So yes, this could work.

On the other hand, John has a history of violence around Sherlock, so who knows?

But this brings me to the question - what was Eurus´ actual role during TLD? Outwardly it seemed like she was a cathalyst that lead him to Culverton Smith eventually and her behaviour as fake John´s fling, fake Faith and fake psycholigist seemed to indicate that this was a setup from her side.... but during conclusion of TLD, we learn that Sherlock wanted to provoke some nasty criminal anyway and so maybe he chose Smith on his own? If that is so, what was Eurus actually doing in TLD and why?


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 26, 2017 2:27 pm  #252


Re: John's violence

This is getting a bit off-topic, but I can imagine that she wanted to get to know Sherlock and John better, so that she could put up an even "better" game, fitting for their personalities. 


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

January 26, 2017 3:33 pm  #253


Re: John's violence

That sounds very convincing for me. And nakahara is right: Euros did'n have to hypnotise John. To influence him by words or suggestions might be enough because he has a tendency to violence anyway. Perhaps she tried to find out how far he would go.















 

 

January 26, 2017 5:59 pm  #254


Re: John's violence

I'm maybe reading too much into it, but I wonder if she was trying to get Sherlock and John back together, because she needed them reconciled for her scenario.     It's she who leads Sherlock to the case that will make John save him (and so save himself), and even John's texting "relationship" seems to bring him closer to Sherlock. 

However, I think John's anger starts before Eurus gets involved.  And he does have previous.

 

January 28, 2017 1:01 pm  #255


Re: John's violence

SusiGo wrote:

We see John getting extremely violent towards Sherlock only hours after his session with Eurus. In TFP we are told that she can manipulate of re-program people within minutes. Now she has a vulnerable man in her office who had just lost his wife, was tortured by guilt, had rejected his best friend. A man she has targeted before. When her attempts at seducing John do not work, she tries to get to him in the disguise of a therapist. So what if her "treatment" was what caused the inexplicable and inexcusable violence towards Sherlock?
 

I have mixed feelings about this idea.

On the one hand, I think Eurus having manipulated John would take a lot of the emotional impact away. That would be a shame IMO.

On the other hand, it seems like a reasonable idea to me. Why would Eurus pose as the therapist if not to influence John? She was capable to tell three terroristic plans by following Twitter for a while if I remember correctly. A German documentary just taught me that you can write the profile of any person just from 150 of his likes on facebook.

We have not been told that Eurus has manipulated John but that is not a valid Argument if you think of the many many things we were not told. :-p


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I still believe that love conquers all!

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"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 28, 2017 3:02 pm  #256


Re: John's violence

I have to say that I don't see it really in the show, although of course Sherlock does warn John not to let Eurus distract him.


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February 13, 2017 2:23 am  #257


Re: John's violence

We, the viewer, are supposed to forgive John for his understandable rage, and subsequent violence because of it - for the same reason Mary (et al) forgave Ajay his rage and his subsequent violence.  Both John and Ajay are 'tortured' souls, lashing out blindly at a malevolent universe which has inflicted so much senseless pain on them - taken away love and family from them.  They both live in horror nightmares.  The way to save their souls is to get them past their horror and rage, and on to healing.  To make them understand they are loved.

It is not a coincidence that both episodes involved such similar situations and responses.  And the reason for both of them was to set up for the third - and final - similar situation and response:  Eurus - who is also an existentially tortured soul, deprived of love all her life,and lashing out with incredible violence at a horrific universe.  She, too, needs to be saved.

Basically, as Benedict stated, the theme of the season is: "Love conquers all"

 

February 13, 2017 8:19 am  #258


Re: John's violence

Yes and it is one of my favourite things about the series.


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April 18, 2017 10:02 pm  #259


Re: John's violence

Pretty accurate explanation of that violent scene.... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


http://cdlafere.tumblr.com/post/159694317085/choosing-a-role-martin-and-benedict
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

April 18, 2017 10:07 pm  #260


Re: John's violence

Oh my goodness! I can see where that post is coming from, but I never thought about that before.


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Clueing for looks.
 

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