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August 16, 2016 7:28 am  #121


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

Of course there have always been things you just have to believe, after all it is fiction which is subject to different laws than reality. But IMO there is something that distinguishes S3, especially HLV, from the other series - the fact that is seems to be against the logic of the show itself, that it does not sit well with viewers, that people feel forced to accept things that seem to go against the essence of the show. I know no other SH adaptation in which Watson chooses a woman who has killed Holmes over the man himself. The contrast between Sherlock nearly dying in his own flat and the Christmassy reconciliation is so jarring to me that I find it hard to believe that this is real. And I definitely never had this feeling before. 

TSoT is different, at least to me. The crime is not very plausible, but the feelings are. And while I strongly dislike John's behaviour at times (the dance floor, in front of Sholto's door) it is something I can understand. HLV, however, I do not understand and that makes it difficult for me to accept the second half of that episode. And not just Mary, also the gun matter, the whole Christmas arrangement, etc. 

 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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August 16, 2016 7:48 am  #122


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

With TSOT, the big thing that bothered me was why people with no family who could attend, and few friends, would stage such a flashy wedding, especially when one is supposedly in hiding.   I wondered if Mary was trying to give some sort of message, but settled on it just being a decision about what looked good to film, and wanting to show a traditional best man's speech.  But, if there's the possibility of them going back in time, maybe there will be a better explanation. 

Yes, they've written Mary very differently, but I think it's unfair to say that John chooses her over Sherlock.  Sherlock seems to push them together, both at 221B and later, by inviting them along for Christmas at his parents'.    He also chooses to shoot Magnussen knowing there would be serious consequences, and knowing that it would help John and Mary stay together.  John isn't given any choice in that (if we believe what see, and this wasn't planned between them off-screen).  The message Sherlock is giving out is less "it's either me or her" and more "If you love and trust me, you can accept her.  I want you to stay with her".  Sherlock practically engineers them getting back together. 

I do agree that some things are odd, though.

 

August 16, 2016 8:48 am  #123


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

John is a grown man. I do not find it very plausible that his reconciliation with his wife should depend on Sherlock. This would basically mean that he makes himself subject to Sherlock's opinion. If Sherlock had said, she is a bad woman, he would have divorced her? I cannot imagine John Watson, army doctor, being pushed by Sherlock to stay with his wife or to leave her either. It must be his decision alone and we see him deciding to stay with her. 

But we will never come to a conclusion as long as we do not know what happened during the "missing months". And the writers deliberately chose not to show us. So far. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

August 16, 2016 9:14 am  #124


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

Of course it's his decision, but you said you didn't know of another adaptation where John "chooses a woman who has killed Holmes over the man himself".   I just assumed you meant Mary.   In that case John doesn't choose Mary over Sherlock.  Sherlock appears to want John to stay with Mary.  If John was giving consideration to Sherlock's feelings than he'd assume that Sherlock wanted him and Mary to be together.   Unless there is something we don't see off screen, everything Sherlock does and says (the confrontation, the scene at 221B, Christmas, shooting Magnussen) seem to support keeping John and Mary together rather than separating them. 

So yes, it's John's decision, but I see no evidence that he's choosing to stay with Mary against Sherlock's expressed wishes.   And I don't see Sherlock suggesting that he has to "choose" between them - only that he has to choose whether to stay with her or not.  (Interestingly, maybe, there's never any question of handing her in to the authorities.  Sherlock accepts her as a client and is working for her, rather than against her, regardless of John's decision about whether to stay with her or not, and John seems to go along with that).

Of course, if they really had planned the murder together (I don't think they did, but that's one explanation for bringing the gun), then that would be different, and I would find it disturbing that John would sacrifice Sherlock in that way.   But it seems to me that John doesn't know that Sherlock is going to shoot Magnussen. 

Last edited by Liberty (August 16, 2016 9:17 am)

 

August 16, 2016 11:52 am  #125


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

@Liberty, I do see the neat differentiation you make here but I think what Susi means is (please correct me if I'm wrong, Susi): there's no adaptation where storytellingwise the rescue of the warstan marriage must be more important than the unique relationship of the two mains.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

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August 16, 2016 11:57 am  #126


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

I agree with Liberty: Sherlock does force the Watsons together again. I really still wonder why.


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"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 16, 2016 12:12 pm  #127


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

mrshouse wrote:

@Liberty, I do see the neat differentiation you make here but I think what Susi means is (please correct me if I'm wrong, Susi): there's no adaptation where storytellingwise the rescue of the warstan marriage must be more important than the unique relationship of the two mains.

Exactly. I know no other adaptation in which the marriage/rescue of the Watson marriage takes such precedence. And I also know of no other adaptation in which John Watson needs to be pushed to Mary by Sherlock Holmes, quite the contrary. If you look at the Ritchie films, for example, you have a Holmes trying his best to prevent the marriage. He comes round in the end but leaves the wedding early (!).
What has bothered me from the beginning is a marriage that seems to be built on nothing but lies and repression (John repressing his knowledge about Mary's past) is given such an important place in the narrative. And for me there is only one explanation for that which I have discussed in the appropriate threads. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

August 16, 2016 1:24 pm  #128


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

Schmiezi wrote:

I agree with Liberty: Sherlock does force the Watsons together again. I really still wonder why.

 
Because it is an epic love story, we just don't get it.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

August 16, 2016 1:43 pm  #129


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

mrshouse wrote:

Schmiezi wrote:

I agree with Liberty: Sherlock does force the Watsons together again. I really still wonder why.

 
Because it is an epic love story, we just don't get it.

That must be it. :-p


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 16, 2016 4:42 pm  #130


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

I think Sherlock allows John to make his choice.


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August 16, 2016 8:46 pm  #131


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

No, I think that if they'd wanted to show the Watsons as an epic love story, they'd have done it quite differently.  Their story doesn't have that format.

 

August 16, 2016 8:47 pm  #132


Re: Why did they bring the gun to Appledore?

I do sometimes get the feeling that John allows himself to be steamrolled by Sherlock, although I haven't been able to figure out why. 

"Fine. Your way. Always your way". That sounds rather bitter. But why would he do it "Sherlock's way" if he didn't want to?


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