Ok, maybe it's late, but this had me literally laughing out loud:

http://smarterthanwelook.tumblr.com/post/147915217082/mark-gay-characters-come-with-expectations-like

(For the record, I can easily picture John as the "grumpy bi". However, I do not see Sherlock as the "campy gay" character).

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I'm 1.5 as well.Though if Johnlock happens on the show, I'll be dancing in the street! :-)

I would join you. 

May I sign up to no.2, as in "The people who believe we are actually been shown a romance in the show", plus no.3, as in "TBTP do that on purpose" and an additional category of romantic realists who think that TPTB do have other agendas too and don't necessarily need to show John and Sherlock in bed together in the end for a johnlock happy ending?

Liberty wrote:

I was thinking that of course we don't have to see them in bed, but do you mean that they don't have to have any sort of sexual relationship at all, on or off screen?  Or that a friendship ending could still be ambiguous enough to be a Johnlock ending?  I could certainly see that.  I'm fully expecting them to ride of into the sunset together, or equivalent, and that could be taken however the audience wants . 

I think it has to be more. There have been so many buddy-cop shows that have had that ambiguous ending-- Starsky and Hutch-- which ended with them in bed together-- albeit a hospital bed-- but there was absolutely no doubt that they were life partners by the end of that series. 

I'm sure it would be lovely for us all to see that, I just don't believe the team have plans to do it.

Vhanja wrote:

Ok, maybe it's late, but this had me literally laughing out loud:

http://smarterthanwelook.tumblr.com/post/147915217082/mark-gay-characters-come-with-expectations-like

(For the record, I can easily picture John as the "grumpy bi". However, I do not see Sherlock as the "campy gay" character).

Yes, John is definitely grumpy, but Sherlock is only slightly camp.  I mean more camp than John, but definitely not "campy gay".   I don't think Mark was talking about stereotypes there, so much as just showing gay people in the same way as straight people i.e. they don't all have to be positive representations now that we're moving on. 

No, I kind of like the fun with it!  I was just thinking that it could also fit Mystrade!  (With Lestrade as grumpy and Mycroft as campy.  Did I even need to say that?).

I've long been thinking about the specific choice of words Mofftis used in their blanket Johnlock responses, and I think I've had something of an epiphany. In both occasions, they say: "It is not our plan to make them an openly gay couple."

The thing about Mofftis lies, is that they rarely -- if ever -- tell direct, flat-out, concrete lies. No, seriously. Their lies are always half-truths, or lies of omission. They make cryptic statements or wrap it up in an enigma, and I've seen that spreadsheet, you know the one, with all the lies listed in rows down the page, each one detailed with dates and details about why it was a lie and when it was confirmed or denied. I can't be the only one who read that list and couldn't find a single absolute plain 100% lie, surely?

And yet, on the subject of Johnlock, the message is explicitly clear: "we're not making them an openly gay couple." To contradict that would be perhaps their only example of a concrete lie. And it's certainly a strong possibility. I mean, why not? Of course they'd lie about it. If this is their one big secret, the big agenda, then it wouldn't be surprising if it turned out to be the one big concrete lie that was absolutely necessary to maintain the fiction. But I think the wording here is so, so important; It's the way they say, "openly gay couple" that gives the wiggle-room they need for this to be not a lie, but a comfortable half-truth, like all the others.

I think the statement is technically true; I don't think they're ever going to show John and Sherlock get together like that. There's romance there, absolutely; We've already had that in spades. But I don't think we'll be getting kissing or a wedding or anything of the sort. I'm coming round to the idea that they really are doing something... else. And in a weird way, I had to explore so far into Johnlock appreciation that I came out the other side of it as if wrapping around the world, or overflowing an integer. My conclusion, then, is that I think they may not be lying when they say "that's not what we're doing" and that actually means something more-- something even bigger.

With all the rest of their talk about the "softly, softly" approach, and of not making a big deal about anyone's specific sexualities, I think what they're actually aiming for is something far more phenomenal. I'm entirely convinced this is one giant love story from the start, and that's evident just from watching the show, but it's a kind of love that goes so far beyond friendship, romance, or sex, as to be utterly uncategorizable with such simple words; None of those labels seem appropriate or adequate to describe the bond that develops between them. They're soulmates. Sun and Moon. Star-crossed lovers. And really, does that have to include sexual attraction? Because it's entirely possible their love is so far beyond base human desire, that it isn't even a consideration for them. They live for eachother. They'd die for eachother. They are the most important people in each other's lives. Having no desire to feck does very little to diminish that, I've come to feel. Johnlock can be true and we can still have Garridebs and TJLC can still be right and it doesn't have to have anything to do with them becoming what we'd typically call "a couple" and it doesn't have to be about anyone "being gay" or not, and that can still be absolutely, incredibly powerful and unique and perfect and beautiful, can't it?

The more I think about it, the more I feel it might actually diminish their characterization by having them kiss or act soppy/lovey or climb into bed with each other. I love it in fanfiction, but on the show, they're getting to be... so far above all that, somehow. It's almost becoming something sacred. Our silly little imaginations can't comprehend the cosmic enormity of what they found in each other, and so we try and tie it down to things like "couple" and "marry" and "sex" and it isn't accurate. They may never end up being "an openly gay couple" on this show, but we know-- we can see how much they're in love. So I don't care what they choose to call it, really. Johnlock is real, and TJLC is correct to say it's been planned this way since the beginning, and no, it doesn't have to mean they also find each other sexually attractive, and no, lacking that element doesn't imply there's anything wrong with the idea, it's just not what they're doing.

...Well, that's how I feel about it this week, at least. But I could be taking it far too seriously. When it comes down to it, BBC Sherlock can often be a pretty irreverent, comedic show, with quite a lot of not-very-serious storytelling. So, perhaps it wouldn't be so far up-itself as I'm imagining. Maybe it really could call Mottfis' bluff on the Johnlock denial, and we'll end up with a romantic confession and a kiss and whatever lies beyond that pale. I certainly wouldn't complain, nor would I think any less of it for doing so (I've been firmly entrenched in the Johnlock/TJLC camp for most of my time here, it would definitely not be a disappointing outcome for me!)

But one thing is for sure, IMHO: This is a coin with no edge, and both sides are stamped "LOVE." It's going to land on one side or the other, and the only difference between them is the flavour. Sherlock & John is a thing that's happening whichever way you look at it, and I'm beyond happy with both these possibilities.

Tumblr is hilarious these days. 

http://martinfreefan.tumblr.com/post/148009898764/sussexbound-im-still-laughing-over-the-fact

They are not always the most verbose.  I'm sure a love confession wouldn't take 26 pages!  The only way I could see that working is if Sherlock did it like a deduction, with flashbacks and mind palace to illustrate it (which would actually be a great way to do it, in my opinion!). 

Gimmiecat, I agree with so much of what you say!  I don't think they are lying.  The two times they have clearly denied Johnlock, it appears to be completely sincere, and has been in the context of gay rights and representation.  I know they can change their minds, but I would be surprised if it happened in S4 (and also disappointed in them for denying it so apparently sincerely). 

I think what they have been showing from the start is a very special, unique, possibly lifelong relationship of genuine love, one which is the focus of the show, and in fact is what the show's "about".  I just don't think it's sexual in nature.  I agree that there isn't any outcome where they don't love each other - I think we all see that.   The main thing that separates Johnlockers and nonJohnlockers is the answer to the question "Do they also fancy each other?".