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July 25, 2016 4:57 pm  #4181


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

I have the strong feeling we need a Mary thread with a spoiler warning. Or is this just me? I honestly feel that I cannot continue the discussion on the basis of S3 and TAB alone. 
 

Could be...

 

July 25, 2016 5:26 pm  #4182


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think not looking at the content of the stick is downright stupid. Not knowing what Mary has done means not being able to be prepared to protect her from someone looking for revenge.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

July 25, 2016 5:36 pm  #4183


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

*runs through the thread screaming*

TRUST ISSUES!


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

July 25, 2016 6:07 pm  #4184


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

New discussion about Mary INCLUDING SPOILERS here:
http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=7001


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

July 31, 2016 8:30 pm  #4185


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

July 31, 2016 8:34 pm  #4186


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think either of them are evil.
I think thy are both misguided.
Irene actively chooses the wrong side.
Mary believes she is ridding the world of no-goods.
Irene is in love with Sherlock, Mary is his friend.
Sherlock ultimately forgives them both.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 31, 2016 8:47 pm  #4187


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Except that Irene co-plotted with Moriarty to blackmail Mycroft in ASIB, and to our knowledge, Mary never blackmailed anybody.  Nor did she co-plot with a known evil person such as Moriarty to do such a thing.
 

 

July 31, 2016 8:48 pm  #4188


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Quite so.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 31, 2016 8:59 pm  #4189


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think we know enough about Mary yet to know how evil (or good?) she is.   Irene seemed kind of neutral, in that most of what she does is for self-protection in the end.  (Including assualting Sherlock, of course.  People seem to forget that he's actually threatening her life at that point, by trying to take her phone). 

 

July 31, 2016 9:14 pm  #4190


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

kgreen20 wrote:

Except that Irene co-plotted with Moriarty to blackmail Mycroft in ASIB, and to our knowledge, Mary never blackmailed anybody.  Nor did she co-plot with a known evil person such as Moriarty to do such a thing.
 

Yes, but Irene never killed anybody and drugged Sherlock only to have her phone back from him.

Mary actually killed unknown number of persons + bumped Sherlock off randomly when he offered help.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

July 31, 2016 9:15 pm  #4191


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well she obviously failed at bumping him off, which makes me wonder how good an assassin she actually was.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 31, 2016 9:21 pm  #4192


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Maybe she never bumped anybody off but just induced increasingly rare medical syndromes which made her look as if she meant to.  Sherlock's Lazarus syndrome was her piece de resistance. 

Which brings me to ... (minor setlock spoilers to follow)

do you think she could be playing a role in the medical theme of Ep2?  She's a nurse, after all, and we know there's at least one scary nurse scene?

 

July 31, 2016 9:35 pm  #4193


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don´t think she is one of them, but who knows?
But it would make her a bit too omnipresent, IMHO.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

July 31, 2016 9:39 pm  #4194


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

I don´t think she is one of them, but who knows?
But it would make her a bit too omnipresent, IMHO.

She's already too omnipresent... for my taste, anyway! 

 

July 31, 2016 9:51 pm  #4195


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

nakahara wrote:

I don´t think she is one of them, but who knows?
But it would make her a bit too omnipresent, IMHO.

She's already too omnipresent... for my taste, anyway! 


 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

August 1, 2016 5:19 am  #4196


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

kgreen20 wrote:

Except that Irene co-plotted with Moriarty to blackmail Mycroft in ASIB, and to our knowledge, Mary never blackmailed anybody.  Nor did she co-plot with a known evil person such as Moriarty to do such a thing.
 

Drugging Sherlock a lot less bad than shooting him to near death. Blackmailing people is less evil than killing people.

I really think it is intriguing that some people seem to think Mary is a better person than Irene anyway. Why? Is it the wish for John to have a wife that makes you forgive her so easily? Do you feel like you HAVE to like her because she is an integral part of the team now? Or is it something else?

This is not meant as criticism, I just really can't get my head around the reasons.

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 1, 2016 5:50 am)


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 1, 2016 7:08 am  #4197


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good question.  I don't really know ... I think I answered above that I see Irene as neutral, but don't really know enough about Mary to judge yet.   Which is interesting, because Irene didn't have a huge amount of screentime and her backstory was completely skimmed over (we never really find out about her past and her motivations), whereas we've seen plenty of Mary over four whole episodes now.   

I think it must because of the stories.  I feel Irene's story is finished, so I can judge her on the information in ASIB, even though I know I don't have anything like the full story.   Whereas, we know Mary's story isn't finished, so it's difficult to judge, even if we've been given a lot of information.   I suppose that if the story for some reason had finished at the end of HLV - either that was the end of the whole series, or perhaps Mary had died - I think I would go for neutral with Mary, and take her "story" as being what we see in that episode.   She had murky past, she changed her life, she did something terrible, she was forgiven.   But I just can't see them leaving her story there in S4.

I do think there are some likeable aspects about her.  I know not everybody would agree, but I do like that she aligns herself with Sherlock when he returns.  Sherlock has returned from two years of hell, and has just recently been tortured.  John is not capable at that time of giving any comfort to Sherlock, understandably.  I think Mary does kind of understand (we find out later why!) and is warm towards him. 

 

August 1, 2016 7:15 am  #4198


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, she definitely had likable aspects. I liked her a lot before she shot Sherlock. It's only that this, together with the "liar" deduction, made me question the likable personality she shows in TEH and TSoT.

You are right with saying her story is not finished yet. I must admit that I judge her anyway but I admire your neutrality due to the unfinished story arc. :-)

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 1, 2016 7:16 am)


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 1, 2016 7:35 am  #4199


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

On the neutrality thing.
Well I just take her for what she is: a plot device!
But I do think she genuinely loves John I mean, how couldn't she?!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 1, 2016 7:48 am  #4200


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

On the neutrality thing.
Well I just take her for what she is: a plot device!
But I do think she genuinely loves John I mean, how couldn't she?!

Well, I think her love for John is very selfish. Can selfish love be genuine?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

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