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May 5, 2016 8:11 pm  #3601


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

nakahara wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

[

If John has no idea how much Sherlock cares by now, he's very much like the Emperor with no clothes!

Maybe Sherlock should have stayed out of it. Then, when inevitably, John and Mary ended up having to deal with the people she hurt, whose family members or loved ones she killed, Sherlock would be out of the blast range.

Maybe, he should have left Mary to Magnussen?

If Sherlock had told John all about Moriarty's plan while he was on the phone with him, on the roof-- maybe John would have survived being shot by his sniper-- poor Mrs Hudson and Lestrade wouldn't have been so lucky. But, maybe he was being arrogant, trying to save their lives, right?

Maybe you're right, and Mary's actions are excusable because she was in love, and that trumps everything. I just hope Sherlock will get over that self-sacrifice thing he's got going. If nothing else, Mary has proved to Sherlock that Mycroft was right: caring is not an advantage.

As for John, I hate to think that he just blindly follows and does what he's told, never questioning, never thinking for himself-- if that's the case, it explains exactly why Sherlock couldn't just level with John about Reichenbach. Anyone could have influenced John in ways that would have gotten them both killed!

Here's another question: why does understanding why Mary shot Sherlock matter? Understanding the motive doesn't equal forgiveness of the act. It would be one thing if it was self-defense, but she shot an unarmed man who was offering her assistance down in cold blood! Any court of law would send her to prison.

Lastly, on John: remember that he is now covering up an attempted murder, covering up another attempted murder, harboring an international fugitive, who would go to prison for the rest of her life if caught, and possibly committing treason against the Crown by harboring said fugitive and perverting the cause of Justice. And he's planning to raise a child with this woman.

Again, this is going by the current surface reading of s3. I'm waiting for s4 to prove that John's forgiveness of Mary was a ruse, and a trap to bring her down. :-)

I have been unusually verbose today, and may need to watch that coffee intake!!! I'm going to shut up now, and let somebody else talk!:-D

 

Bravo! I agree with every word!

I can also add that forgiving Mary destroys John´s credibility as a character. The man who forgives attempted murder of his best friend and burns the evidence convicting the mass murderer of her crimes in the fire  cannot be considered "the man of strong moral principles" anymore. Nor can he be considered the loyal and dependable supporter of Sherlock anymore - his loyalties obviously lie elsewhere. Also, despite witnessing Mary´s attempts at violence towards Sherlock first-hand in Lennister gardens, he ignores this and only reproaches Mary that she is "the lying wife", he never ever mentions in his reproach that she is the murderer. This makes it look as if this side of Mary´s personality doesn´t bother him at all. The same man reproached Sherlock in the past that he was not visibly sad when encountering the bodies of murdered victims - but actually killing these victims is suddenly all right.

Thanks, and yep-- I think you're exactly right on the points you've made, above. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 5, 2016 8:12 pm)

 

May 5, 2016 8:16 pm  #3602


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Sometimes I read this thread and it seems people are most outraged that Sherlock and John don't hate Mary as much as they do and really can't accept that they have forgiven her and moved on.
It seems it's going to be a constant tirade against Mary, until the cheering when she dies.


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May 5, 2016 8:20 pm  #3603


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think that there needs to be a serious effort to "redeem" Mary, if Mofftiss wants her to remain a supporting character-- just having a baby doesn't cut it. If they don't fix this-- I suspect there will always be a schism in the fandom. But they haven't really tried. Either that, or make her very clearly a villain. One or the other. 

The other thing-- I'm not sure having her as part of the "new crime-solving trio" is going to work out all that well...

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 5, 2016 8:22 pm)

 

May 5, 2016 8:22 pm  #3604


 

May 5, 2016 8:23 pm  #3605


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I doubt the team are very concerned about fandom schisms, I know I'm not.
Anyhow, I feel the second schism already exists: some people accept Mary and others don't.


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May 5, 2016 8:31 pm  #3606


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The thing is-- even if you left out the attempted murder of Sherlock (or assault with a deadly weapon or malpractice: performing "surgery on someone who is not a patient, without their consent, with the wrong instruments-- a gun, instead of a scalpel) Mary is still a Murderess. Or, what do folks think an Assassin is? 
If it were just government work, she wouldn't be a fugitive, now would she? Prison for the rest of her life? Why should she worry? If her work was sanctioned by a government, she would have been set up in a new life. Instead-- she's running from people-- who know about all the people she killed and want revenge. 

That's not going to end well. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 5, 2016 8:32 pm)

 

May 5, 2016 8:34 pm  #3607


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm fairly certain she will die next series.


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May 6, 2016 1:01 am  #3608


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

She and the baby along with her.  Then John will end up moving back to 221B Baker Street.

 

 

May 6, 2016 2:56 am  #3609


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

I doubt the team are very concerned about fandom schisms, I know I'm not.
Anyhow, I feel the second schism already exists: some people accept Mary and others don't.

 
The funny thing is, I've always wondered about why the writers decided to portray Mary as they have. The character is canon, yes; but with a huge departure from the good girl of canon.  Right from the start it felt to me almost as if they were testing the waters to see if Amanda/Mary would be a good addition to the show. If she was beloved by the fans (like Molly) she could remain indefinitely as the third addition to the boys.  If not, there's plenty of wiggle room to write her out. The ambivalence is quite interesting to me.


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May 6, 2016 6:05 am  #3610


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't know if I see it that way, I tend to think they will keep canonical and write Mary out.
I think the difference with Molly is that she is their creation, so they can do what they like with her.
The only change I see with Mary, well apart from her apparently definitely having a baby...is that the team seem to have fulfilled ACD's hint(and I won't give the quote again)about the possibility of her being able to help the dynamic duo.

The other think I meant to say, is that I am assuming The Original fandom Schism is seen as Johnlock.
But to be honest, I don't see The Mary Schism as anything separate from that. I think it's all the same Schism.


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May 6, 2016 6:21 am  #3611


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

The other think I meant to say, is that I am assuming The Original fandom Schism is seen as Johnlock.
But to be honest, I don't see The Mary Schism as anything separate from that. I think it's all the same Schism.

I think it is way too easy to write it off as the same schism. There are so many forum members who have repeatedly said that their negative feelings towards Mary are directly linked to Mary shooting Sherlock and not showing proper remorse afterwards.

I for one am full-fledged Johnlocker (surprise) and liked her anyway, even during the wedding. It was her action and the way she dealt with it afterwards that ended my sympathy for her.

But of course it is easier to say "You hate her because of Johnlock" than at least to consider that there might be valid points that lead to a certain negative view of her character.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

May 6, 2016 6:30 am  #3612


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

Sometimes I read this thread and it seems people are most outraged that Sherlock and John don't hate Mary as much as they do and really can't accept that they have forgiven her and moved on.
It seems it's going to be a constant tirade against Mary, until the cheering when she dies.

I really wonder why you have to make such mean comments on others.
 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

May 6, 2016 7:00 am  #3613


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Schmiezi wrote:

But of course it is easier to say "You hate her because of Johnlock" than at least to consider that there might be valid points that lead to a certain negative view of her character.

I agree. I guess, it´s quite hard to defend a character´s image of a saint if the authors of the series do not contribute to that and introduce the same character as a cold blooded-murderer. So to achieve that, something just HAS to be wrong with the audience - some inherent flaw (like Johnlock or other factors) must prevent people from noticing how awesome Mary is....


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May 6, 2016 7:06 am  #3614


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm just not convinced that she's actually being presented as a cold-blooded murderer (or a serial killer).  

 

May 6, 2016 7:08 am  #3615


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But you didn't make that comments in question either.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

May 6, 2016 7:10 am  #3616


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Liberty wrote:

I'm just not convinced that she's actually being presented as a cold-blooded murderer (or a serial killer).  

With the information we have on her, how do you perceive her?
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

May 6, 2016 7:57 am  #3617


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I personally have no problem understanding that people don't like Mary. There are certain things about her I don't like myself. I just prefer a more nuanced view on characters instead of either "Mary is a saint" or "Mary is a psycopath with no redeeming qualities whatsoever". In my opinion, it's clear that she is neither.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 6, 2016 7:57 am)


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May 6, 2016 8:26 am  #3618


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Harriet wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Sometimes I read this thread and it seems people are most outraged that Sherlock and John don't hate Mary as much as they do and really can't accept that they have forgiven her and moved on.
It seems it's going to be a constant tirade against Mary, until the cheering when she dies.

I really wonder why you have to make such mean comments on others.
 

 
I didn't want to engage in the discussions anymore but I wholeheartedly agree with this.
There's a tendency to judge the opinions of the users lately and divide them into good and bad at a moral level. Not very useful for discussion.
Plus I've mentioned more than one time that on this forum alone there's a range of fans representing different shades concerning both Johnlock and the character of Mary.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

May 6, 2016 11:59 am  #3619


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Mod Note:  Bottom line is we need to discuss opinions, what we see in the show that leads us to these opinions and not the individuals holding those opinions. 


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May 6, 2016 1:42 pm  #3620


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Good point, mod! :-)


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