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April 7, 2016 7:26 pm  #5661


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I still find it odd how some Johnlockers have to resort to conspiracy and subtext...
Yet when John actually tells Mary it will be his privilege to be her future...somehow he's not believed.


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April 7, 2016 7:27 pm  #5662


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It's always said that a johnlocker will see what they want to see, but how does one become a johnlocker in the first place?  I didn't go into Sherlock looking for anyone to ship, but from the first episode the dialogue and the acting and the way the characters interacted all got into my head and planted the seed.  From the beginning the character of Sherlock read as gay to me and I immediately read the Angelo's scene as a tease of a possible relationship.  There's really no other reason for the scene to exist.

Anyway, there's a reason I don't actually participate much in the debate.  You either see it or you don't.  I highly doubt anything I say will make anyone change their opinion.


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

April 7, 2016 7:29 pm  #5663


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well, let me quote Steven (regarding Doctor Who but we know about the similarities in his writing): 

"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you."
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 7, 2016 7:32 pm  #5664


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I point you to my signature.
I believe Mark.


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April 7, 2016 7:37 pm  #5665


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree, I don't think anyone will change their opinion based on what's written here, either way. It's fun to share opinions anyway, I think.

Well, there is subtext, but not everyone agree on what that subtext is and what consists subtext or not. I always saw the Angelo scene as John trying to get to know his new flatmate - asking if someone has a partner is quite normal when you start to get to know someone. And it being "good" that they were both single I interpreted as it's easier to be a flatmate when both are single. 

Or so I always saw that scene. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

April 7, 2016 7:46 pm  #5666


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Ah, see I don't know whether it's language or what...
Most of what you say Vhanja I just see as analysis.
Where as 'subtext' to me suggests more of something hidden.


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April 7, 2016 7:57 pm  #5667


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think the Angelo's scene also helps establish Sherlock as celibate (or asexual - it's not quite clear at that point, although it does become clear later).   It doesn't confirm or rule out any particular sexual orientation for him, and I don't think we need to know what his orientation is at that point or possibly ever.  But I think that helps set the scene - he doesn't go in for that sort of thing. 

I suppose subtext might be something like the clues about Mary?  Or the meaning behind what they say.  For instance the scene with Mycroft in TAB where they are talking about rivals, when it's clear that the subtext is that Mycroft and Sherlock themselves are rivals.
 

 

April 7, 2016 11:24 pm  #5668


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Many many works of art, if not all, contain subtext.  Analysis is not something separate from subtext but rather a means of studying it.   Also, subtext is not necessarily hidden, it's just not front and center.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

April 8, 2016 6:31 am  #5669


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

The difficult bit is working out the writers' intentions (when it's not something that's stated directly). 

But my point is really that if the writers want us on board, if they want us to have been following a romance for the past six years, then they have to be more direct.  So far, there has been nothing that is unequivocally Johnlock, so that a viewer could know that they are attracted to each other and want to take things further.   If the viewers don't know it, they're following the story. 

Of course, it's possible that they'd want to spring it as a surprise, after dropping hints previously.   I think that's unlikely, partly because of what Mark said, but also because of TPLOSH - I don't think they would spend so many years being less explicit than Billy Wilder was able to be.   But if they do that, it won't be a "slow-burn" romance, because most of the viewers won't have seen it happening and won't be on board until it's right there on the screen.

Last edited by Liberty (April 8, 2016 6:55 am)

 

April 8, 2016 7:29 am  #5670


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Though of course it does help when the team do state things very clearly.


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April 8, 2016 4:55 pm  #5671


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, it would be interesting if somebody did a compilation of all the things the team have said about the relationship.   It would be a long list of things, but it would be nice to see it all together.  Of course, it would still be open to interpretation (I was really surprised that the TJLCE videos showed Martin's frustration about being questioned about the subject as evidence of Johnlock!), but it might give an overall picture.  Otherwise, we're kind of stuck with our different views on what the subtext is.   I posted part of a Steven Moffat interview on this thread a while ago: I was surprised at how closely his comments actually fitted with what we were shown on screen years later.  I'm sure their views on the characters have evolved over the years, but there does seem to be quite a bit of consistency.

 

April 8, 2016 5:13 pm  #5672


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Of course the trouble is, both sides recognise the consistency!
I still say that if I ever meet the team, that's the one thing I want to ask them: do they ever regret going with the gay joke thing?
Because I can tell you, as a massive fan, it can sometimes be a gigantic pain in the proverbial!
Then again, the one thing artists have no control over, is how people respond to their work.


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May 15, 2016 1:58 am  #5673


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

There is one interesting little thing Ben said early on about the relationship between Sherlock and John. Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact quote, but he said something about it being exciting or interesting where the "relationship was going"in the BBC version.

As I see it, he can't be talking about them being close friends, because that isn't "exciting" or "interesting" or something new. It's not a new place the "relationship is going", because that is obvious and stated canon.

I don't think, as mentioned before, that Johnlock will happen on screen. That is why I am putting it in this thread, because I am wondering what else this quote could mean? Where, apart from being close friends, could be interesting about where their relationship is going?

Last edited by Vhanja (May 15, 2016 2:23 am)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

May 15, 2016 7:26 am  #5674


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Them falling out completely over Mary's death?
I don't see that happening.
But I do think them becoming more affectionate and emotional with each other, as a development.
But that may be just me and my opinion may obviously be coloured by my taking to heart Mark's interview in my signature.


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May 15, 2016 8:55 am  #5675


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

There is one interesting little thing Ben said early on about the relationship between Sherlock and John. Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact quote, but he said something about it being exciting or interesting where the "relationship was going"in the BBC version.

As I see it, he can't be talking about them being close friends, because that isn't "exciting" or "interesting" or something new. It's not a new place the "relationship is going", because that is obvious and stated canon.

I don't think, as mentioned before, that Johnlock will happen on screen. That is why I am putting it in this thread, because I am wondering what else this quote could mean? Where, apart from being close friends, could be interesting about where their relationship is going?

I know which quote you mean. He said that around 2010 when they started filming. It had nothing to do with Mary and it cannot have been about the friendship which has always been there. I will post it if I can find it. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 15, 2016 9:02 am  #5676


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I suppose it could be anything, going from that little bit of quote!  I do think the show has a different take on the relationship - there was a comment Martin made too near the beginning about not being just a sidekick - I think this "Watson" is quite different (and this Sherlock is quite different too).  If the quote was early on, then I think we've already seen a lot of it happening.

I've never really agreed with the idea that the relationship can only develop if they are lovers rather  than close friends.  We've seen Mycroft and Sherlock's relationship develop from what was in canon and from what we were initially shown in S1, but (so far!) they are still brothers - it's not a different relationship, but things have changed within that relationship.  John and Mary are married, as in canon, but what has happened there is quite different, even if they have the same relationship (husband and wife).  They're definitely in a different place than they were at the beginning of S3.   And I do think Sherlock and John's relationship has developed (and been tested) since the beginning too, and there is still plenty of room for it to develop more. 

I agree with Besleybean about the quote from Mark.  That comes across as heartfelt rather than trying to cover up a plot point.  I also think that if they were going to go down that route now, it would have been more interesting to set up earlier - to make it obvious to general viewers that they fancied each other.   (I know people will say there are codes but (a) I don't think the general viewer would see them and (b) there's no need to code same sex orientations and relationships any more in that way, thankfully - they can be shown openly).  (I know you said you don't see Johnlock happening, but I thought I'd better say something about as it's the debate thread, rather than the friendship thread!). 

I don't feel I can really guess at where it's going, but there are lots of things that could happen.  There have been strong hints that there is going to be sadness and darkness in S4.  There could be something involving Mary, the baby, or Mycroft (the people closest to them).  Perhaps somebody killing somebody, saving somebody, failing to save somebody.  So far we've had Sherlock kind of sacrifice himself for John, but haven't really had that happen the other way round.  I've also wondered recently about something happening that would really make one of them doubt the other.   So far, that hasn't happened.   It might be difficult to come back from, because their relationship seems to have been based on such deep mutual trust from the beginning.   But this is all pure speculation! 

 

May 29, 2016 11:55 am  #5677


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I just stumbled upon the quote Vhanja was talking about:

 The minute I started reading the [Sherlock] script, I thought, ‘Yeah, this is going to be a lot of fun.’ 

And then, I met with [Mark Gatiss and Steven Moffat] and it was only after we talked about what it would be developed into, and the relationship of Watson and Holmes and where’d they go, that I thought, ‘Yeah, this could be terrific fun. I’m going to go for it.’ 
Benedict Cumberbatch 
(Collider interview, October 2012)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

May 29, 2016 2:43 pm  #5678


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

I just stumbled upon the quote Vhanja was talking about:

 The minute I started reading the [Sherlock] script, I thought, ‘Yeah, this is going to be a lot of fun.’ 

And then, I met with [Mark Gatiss and Steven Moffat] and it was only after we talked about what it would be developed into, and the relationship of Watson and Holmes and where’d they go, that I thought, ‘Yeah, this could be terrific fun. I’m going to go for it.’ 
Benedict Cumberbatch 
(Collider interview, October 2012)

Where could Holmes and Watson go that they haven't gone before............................................................?
 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

May 29, 2016 2:51 pm  #5679


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It could just mean in terms of the adventures, but we'll see...
But why hang onto this quote, but not accept Mark speaking out against Johnlock?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

May 29, 2016 3:06 pm  #5680


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well done on finding it, Susi!  It's odd, I looked it up and it seems to be 2010 rather than 2012.   But either way, I think he's talking about right at the beginning, reading the script and talking to Moftiss about it.  (I wonder if he said "where'd they go" or if it's a misprint?). 

He says later, along the same lines:
There’s all sorts of things that I’d love to do, or characters that I’d love to be involved, but it’s a mixture of the new and the old. Some of the plot borrowings and deductions, the characters, their relationships and the detail of their lives is very much drawn from the original because there would be no point with messing with what ain’t broke, but as far as adventures go, I think they can definitely take it into new a realm. So, I’m excited about doing things that fans expect as well as letting their imagination have free reign and going new places with it.

(again, looks like there's a typo)
 

 

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