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August 18, 2015 6:38 pm  #3961


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, he did. I cannot find the quote at the moment but it would be very out of character for Steven and Mark to write about a happy Watson marriage. Does not make for a dramatic show. Or the Sherlock and John show. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 18, 2015 6:45 pm  #3962


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I am SO exited to see where they take this in S4. I mean - with a baby on the way? How on earth are they going to solve this?!


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

August 18, 2015 6:48 pm  #3963


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I'm wondering if we'll see a baby at all-- by the time s4 airs, won't the child be a toddler?

 

August 18, 2015 6:51 pm  #3964


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 18, 2015 6:51 pm  #3965


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Lol, at least!


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

August 19, 2015 8:34 pm  #3966


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I really like this post. Can it be that Canon is so much more progressive? 

http://heimishtheidealhusband.tumblr.com/post/127085526028/sharing-a-room-always

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 19, 2015 8:37 pm  #3967


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Only explanation for this must be that it was probably more acceptable for two men to share a bedroom in a hotel back then? Just as it was more acceptable for them to be flatmates without there being any speculation. Also, it could be to save money?


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

August 19, 2015 8:39 pm  #3968


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Tbh, I have no idea how this constant flat-and-bed-sharing would have been perceived in Victorian times. But I would really like to hear about this from a historian. The same goes for a post I saw about all the instances in which John Watson describe male beauty in great detail. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 19, 2015 9:34 pm  #3969


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

Only explanation for this must be that it was probably more acceptable for two men to share a bedroom in a hotel back then? Just as it was more acceptable for them to be flatmates without there being any speculation. Also, it could be to save money?

Why the only explanation?
 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

August 19, 2015 9:37 pm  #3970


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Harriet wrote:

Why the only explanation?
 

Dropped a word there. What I meant was only OTHER explanation.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

August 19, 2015 9:39 pm  #3971


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

So another explanation is needed?


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

August 19, 2015 9:43 pm  #3972


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Harriet wrote:

So another explanation is needed?

One shouldn't jump to any conclusions without having gone through all possible explanations.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

August 19, 2015 9:47 pm  #3973


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh. I see. Right, one used to be used so often that it might be helpful to have a look at the other one.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

August 20, 2015 4:03 am  #3974


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

You've got me thinking---you know, back in the 50's, 40's, 30's-- it was not uncommon for men to kiss each other in greeting. People weren't so worried about "The Gay", in those times. I mean, at that time, "Gay", just meant happy. So, I think, when we try to look at the Victorian Era and how men behaved with each other in the context of our own times-- well, it can be misleading and confusing. Of course, back then-- Homosexuality was an actual Crime-- or at least warranted commitment into the nuthouse. 
 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 20, 2015 4:03 am)

 

August 20, 2015 4:21 am  #3975


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

I really like this post. Can it be that Canon is so much more progressive? 

http://heimishtheidealhusband.tumblr.com/post/127085526028/sharing-a-room-always

 

I just want to quote from "The Man with the Twisted Lips" for the sake of science: (Yes, literary studies is science too)

Holmes: “You’ll come with me, won’t you?
Watson:“If I can be of use.”
Holmes: “Oh, a trusty comrade is always of use; (...) My room at The Cedars is a double-bedded one.”


Well, nothing left to say.
  

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 20, 2015 4:22 am)


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 20, 2015 12:33 pm  #3976


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

When it comes to Johnlock, I'm not sure what to think.

At the risk of sounding soapboxy, I did feel there was something deeper between them - certain moments in Series 3, little looks and the fact that (and I only realised this in fullness the other day) wow, John is in a really foul mood for most of HLV, even before Mary shoots Sherlock. He clearly misses Sherlock and the excitement of it and he's immediately getting involved with Sherlock again when he finds him in the drug-den. I feel Sherlock has deliberately distanced himself from John in that time (although I'm disappointed in John for not keeping in better contact with him). He rushes straight back in, head-first. For me though, it's more the pilot than anything, because I feel there's something in the pilot - Sherlock being younger and friendlier and John being, I think, a little kinder and a little less angry and by extension a little less defensive; how they might have been, I feel, if they had met about ten years earlier. Quite an interesting thing. 

I don't - and this is where the soapboxy bit comes in - feel comfortable reading fanfic where Mary is still on the scene and still married to John when there's Johnlock on the horizon, so right now I'm in the AU zone when Mary just isn't there, or fast-forward to when she's gone. I actually think of Arthur Conan Doyle's own real-life dillemma when he fell in love with Jean Leckie, but remained loyal to his wife. I wonder about a fanfic where John would be in that situation. 

Having said all that, though, I think I'd like to get back to a place where I personally just Johnlock for a giggle, rather than anything serious, as I think the fanfic is what makes it fly. I got to a point where I took it all a little too seriously and I think now I just want to scale back and remember it's supposed to be for fun. 

Anyway, sorry to sound so random; tis just my thoughts. 

TC x

 

August 20, 2015 7:19 pm  #3977


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

You've got me thinking---you know, back in the 50's, 40's, 30's-- it was not uncommon for men to kiss each other in greeting. People weren't so worried about "The Gay", in those times. I mean, at that time, "Gay", just meant happy. So, I think, when we try to look at the Victorian Era and how men behaved with each other in the context of our own times-- well, it can be misleading and confusing. Of course, back then-- Homosexuality was an actual Crime-- or at least warranted commitment into the nuthouse.  

It depends much on the respective culture and country, and sometimes one or two decades only, can make a big difference in behaviour. See 1920ies in Europe compared to 1930ies in fascist Europe.

About terms like "gay" or "ejaculate" (as we find our boys in ACD canon ejaculate frequently), they often had several meanings at the same time, with meaning depending on context, just as today where we can find the same.
"Gay" meant a lot of things during the centuries. An at least ambiguous use of "gay" in US slang seems to go back to the mid 19th century actually.
So looking at the language is not simply about transferring today's meaning into those days.

And in days when men didn't feel uncomfortable showing their affection physically, it didn't necessarily mean they were straight


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 7, 2015 8:03 am  #3978


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 7, 2015 8:23 am  #3979


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Comprehensive and consistent indeed 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 7, 2015 10:13 am  #3980


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I like that VERY much.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

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